MomsRising Healthcare Truth Squad


I get e-mail.  In all the discouraging folderol on the health care debate, it’s nice to know that a few people are carrying the torch for democracy and good republican government like these ladies.

Red caped mothers and others in Baltimore, before the U.S.S. Constellation, campaigning to dispel false rumors about health care reform, on August 19, 2009.  Image from MomsRising.com

Red caped mothers and others in Baltimore, before the U.S.S. Constellation, campaigning to dispel false rumors about health care reform, on August 19, 2009. Image from MomsRising.com

Watch for the ladies in red capes.  Barney Frank won’t ask what planet they spend their time on, I’ll wager.

Note links to more information, or to join in their merriment, in the letter.

Faster than a toddler crawling toward an uncovered electrical outlet and more powerful than a teenager’s social networking skills, moms across the country have been fanning out to dispel the unfounded rumors, misconceptions, and lies about healthcare reform.

MomsRising Healthcare Truth Squad members, dressed in red capes, have been distributing powerful truth flyers across the nation to passersby to educate them about what healthcare reform will really do, and about how it will help to ensure the economic security of families across the country.

“I must admit that I don’t normally wear a cape in public, but it was oddly empowering.  We knew we were having an impact on the larger conversation about healthcare when a news camera starting following us around. I definitely recommend life as a superhero,” say Donna, a cape wearing SuperMom for Healthcare.

*Let’s give our caped myth-busting moms some “online backup” by Truth Tagging friends with healthcare reform myths & facts today–it’s a virtual distribution of the same facts that the MomsRising Healthcare Truth Squad members are handing out in-person:

http://momsrising.democracyinaction.org/o/1768/tellafriend.jsp?tell_a_friend_KEY=4728

It’s going to take thousands of super heroines speaking up in order to get the healthcare debate back on track. We can’t all be out on the streets in capes, so please take a moment now to spread the word and bust some myths via email to friends and family by clicking the link above.

Why’s this so important to moms right now? Over 46 million people in our nation don’t have any healthcare coverage at all, including millions of children. Not only are families struggling with getting children the healthcare coverage they need for a healthy start, but 7 out of 10 women are either uninsured, underinsured, or are in significant debt due to healthcare costs. In fact, a leading cause of bankruptcy is healthcare costs — and over 70% of those who do go bankrupt due to healthcare costs had insurance at the start of their illness. Clearly we need to fix our broken healthcare system!

Don’t forget to help put some more truth into the mix of the national dialogue on healthcare reform right now:

http://momsrising.democracyinaction.org/o/1768/tellafriend.jsp?tell_a_friend_KEY=4728

Onward!
–Kristin, Joan, Donna, Ashley, Julia, Dionna, Katie, Anita, Sarah, Mary, and the entire MomsRising Team

P.S.  We’ve been hearing so much positive feedback about our caped crusading moms that it might be time to lead a giant march of moms on the National Capitol Mall.  Tell us what you think: http://www.momsrising.org/blog/bust-a-myth-tag-a-friend-with-the-truth-about-healthcare/

P.P.S.  Want to get more involved with the MomsRising Healthcare Truth Squad members? Click here: http://momsrising.democracyinaction.org/o/1768/t/9251/signUp.jsp?key=4284

P.P.P.S. When you go to the Truth Squad Tag page, you can also see a video of our MomsRising Healthcare Truth Squad in action wearing capes! http://momsrising.democracyinaction.org/o/1768/tellafriend.jsp?tell_a_friend_KEY=4727

Here’s the video:

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24 Responses to MomsRising Healthcare Truth Squad

  1. Ed Darrell says:

    So, Rocket: Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing — still?

    Not a single substantive response. Case closed.

    Like

  2. Rocket says:

    LMAO Ed, your entire rant was the “epitome”, the literal definition of a radical progressive liberal democrat.

    As soon as your run out of rhetoric, and are cornered and can no longer argue your way out with sidetrack issues that have absolutely no bearing on a topic, you move right into the “you hate America”, You are a hater because you wont support my whining.
    Blah Blah Blah, this thread is dead

    Like

  3. Ed Darrell says:

    The Education of Rocket, continued:

    From the Tennessee Legal Aid Society PDF (http://www.tennlegalaid.com/Library/Documents/1150904389.52/ERcardweb_705.pdf/ERcardweb_705.pdf?topic_id=1000003&library=PublicWeb)

    “Can’t pay? Don’t have insurance,
    or TennCare or Medicare? You still
    have a legal right to get hospital
    care for an emergency or childbirth.
    ‘It’s against the law to turn you
    away because you can’t pay.’

    This does not mean the care is free.
    You may have to agree to pay later.”

    NY Legal Aid Society has a similar pamphlet, And Every State Legal Aid society all say the same thing.

    This federal law
    1. applies only to Hill-Burton Act-funded facilities, and
    2. only to those hospitals with emergency rooms, and
    3. only for emergency services, and
    4. this is the most expensive, often most inappropriate, and certainly the most wasteful way to provide service.

    As a practical matter, Parkland in Dallas, for example will treat almost anything, but many hospitals reserve the right to refuse service for non-emergency situations. Hill-Burton doesn’t require the delivery of all medical services, only those for the immediately emergent situation.

    Again I wonder, why is it you favor gouging everybody instead of just providing the necessary services at an appropriate time and reasonable cost?

    Once again you both are wrong. Just because you can’t find something or are as you said Ed, “unaware” (which is your standard ignorant fall back) doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

    This will be the last time I will do the work and SCHOOL you both.
    Slade v. Bloomberg, 45177/86 (Sup. Co. N.Y. Co.)
    Slade v. Koch, 135 Misc. 2d 283 (Sup. Ct. N.Y. Co. 1987)
    Slade v. Koch, 136 Misc. 2d 119 (Sup. Ct. N.Y. Co. 1987)

    There are numerous cases in many states. Just because you are too ignorant to find the cases don’t mean they dont exist.

    You’re missing most of the point, Rocket. Sure, emergency care exists. No, it won’t work to stop H1N1 flu. No, it won’t work to inoculate kids for schools. No, it doesn’t cover everything. Yes, it’s incredibly expensive. And if you have insurance, you pay $1,500 a year to cover the delivery of care to indigents, about two-thirds of that through emergency rooms.

    Wholly apart from the quality of care issues, what sort of lobotomy did you get that what makes you think it’s a good idea for you to flush away $1,500 a year? Do you enjoy paying the extra money?

    What a retarded argument you pose nick. You and Ed both used the statement in the declaration and the constitution article that the gov is required to maintain the general welfare of its citizens which I posted well before either of you as a response to other comments that the government must control the private sector of health insurance which was inaccurate.

    I don’t think either one of us said the government is required to provide medical services. There is no guarantee of medical care in the Constitution.

    In response to your claim that the Constitution prevents such action, I pointed to provisions that allow the government to do it.

    That leaves aside the issue of whether it’s good or wise to do so — but you have to get to real, true and accurate data before you can discuss the issue at all.

    The gov is not required but does provide for the general welfare of citizens by making it illegal to refuse anyone emergency care in a “LIFE THREATENING” event.

    You’re not entirely accurate, but for the sake of argument, let’s assume you are.

    If it’s true that the government must provide care, why in God’s and George Washington’s name should we provide that care in the most wasteful, most costly, and least effective way? Why should we waste money to do it? Why not do it more cheaply, to save taxpayers’ money?

    NO one is contending that its cheap health care to go to an emergency room. no one even contends that its not expensive to go to an emergency room. This is typical back pedaling by liberals who mount an argument by twisting the topic, and sidetracking on unrelated topics, cant stick to a topic and try to confuse people by injecting unrelated information.

    So, you recognize that it’s not rational to pick the most expensive, least effective method of health care delivery.

    You’re the one making the case that it’s required here — why blame liberals for your stupid argument? Rocket, you’re not a liberal, are you?

    To top off this health care reform, overhaul whatever B.O’s phrase of the day is to get what he wants REGARDLESS of what american citizens want, if the bill is passed it wont become effective or law for 6 years. Thats right…oh you forgot to tell people that? Typical liberal.

    The failure to capitalize “American” — typographical error, right?

    Most Americans want to provide coverage for the uninsured, Rocket. That was Nick’s point, from a conservative poll.

    You’re making stuff up again. No effect for six years? Heck, we’ll be back in boom times by then — no need to worry about zero new cost for six years.

    Can you explain why you’re arguing contrary to your previous arguments, Rocket?

    Which means the cost of this program that is supposed to be paid for by us, for us with our tax dollars wont be spread of 10 years, it will be spread over only 4, the last 4 of the 10 year span B.O. said it would be paid in.

    No such provision. Don’t smoke stuff that’s been sprayed with odd chemicals, Rocket. The headache’s not worth it, and the hallucinations are hell.

    Now to put a lid on this crap. All the polls show how unpopular this “plan” (of yet another gov program to fail) is, not to mention the whiney, spineless liberals have NO PROBLEM passing this cost onto our kids and our kid’s kids. Not to mention that the Democrats (as usual) have vowed to “pay for health reform with spending cuts and ‘tax increases’” yet spending more has been what B.O. and his dems have been doing since taking office. Not to mention that all the democrats and B.O. proposals have ballooned the federal deficit projections (according to the White house’s Office of Management and budget) $9.05 TRILLION for the period of 2010-2019.

    10 TIMES that of the Bush administration. (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/)

    Of which about $8.5 trillion belongs to Bush. Check the real figures, Rocket.

    The “ENTIRE” argument that the gov “needs” to reform “PRIVATE” health care in American is WRONG. PERIOD.

    If you don’t like paying the price of health care to the company you choose, CHOOSE ANOTHER ONE that have prices you like.

    Any health insurance company that uses a hospital pays the penalty for lack of reform — it’s $1,800 per person in Texas. For my family, we pay $7,200 a year for the privilege of not having reform. This cost inflates at 15% per year, doubling in under four years.

    This is more than half the cause of the crash of the housing market, and it’s the leading cause of personal bankruptcy in America today.

    Why do you hate America so, Rocket?

    This is how every single business in america operates. They set a price for their product and service, you get to choose which company to buy from. This is capitalism and free market.

    Are you really that daft? Do you think health care cost inflation is solely the result of people refusing to shop around? You have no understand of supply-demand issues?

    And that’s why you cloud your bizarre claims in insults?

    When the government steps in to take control of a private company and pricing of a product or service (which controls the production), this is socialism. Period.

    Rocket, under H.R. 3200, no government entity “steps in to control a private company and pricing of a product and service.”

    It’s not socialism, either if it doesn’t cap the production of the service — and there are no such controls anywhere in any proposal.

    With people like you advocating that we flush money down the toilet, no wonder health care cost control hasn’t happened.

    Any time the government takes control of a private business it is taking away a fundamental right our constitution endows us all with, the freedom to the pursuit of life, liberty and prosperity.

    Even the John Birch Society has dropped that argument. No one seriously thinks we should contract out air traffic control, airport building, road building, air defense, Navy patrols, or diplomacy.

    Government-run health care is in almost all cases much more efficient than privately-operated health care. For every horror story about government screw-ups, there are ten such stories in the private sector.

    But don’t let the facts get in the way of your rant, Rocket. If we don’t have examples of idiot claims like yours to show our children, they could grow up with real health care and without tragedy in their life, and we all know how children need tragedy to grow strong. (/sarcasm)

    If you truly don’t believe there is anything wrong with the government stepping in to control a company’s prices or production, then where the hell were you and the government when our gas prices starting going up. You werent pissed about that? you dont mind paying 2, 3, or 4 times what you are used to? Where is your rant about controlling something that you use EVERY SINGLE DAY that costs you far more than health insurance?

    I truly believe you’re making this complaint up whole cloth. I keep asking you to refer to specific provisions in a bill, and you keep failing to do that. I believe your failure is because your argument is false. I believe your repeated failure is because you have a moral lapse. But change my opinion — show me the provision that does what you claim.

    The reason nothing was done is for the exact same reason I have been stating here in these posts all along that the liberal democrats will not accept. Capitalism and free market allows them to set their own prices. If you don’t like the price, buy somewhere else.

    You really are hallucinating. If you believe cost inflation in health care is solely due to price gouging by health care companies, that might be reason enough for federal takeover, though Congress is proposing only free-market competition and tighter regulation. But the root of your argument is that the vast majority of Americans are too stupid to make a wise purchase.

    Tell me again: Are you working for Putin, or Ahmadinejad?

    Put your thick heads in the place of the health care companies for a moment. If you jack up the price of your care to your customers, how long before you lose all your customers?

    According to your argument here, never.

    How long before your customers start shopping somewhere else? how long before your company crumbles under the free market system we live in?

    Hello!!! get a clue. Your company will die going down this road of increasing the price until no one can pay for it.

    This is a natural course. period.

    Depends. What is the elasticity of the market? Is the product one that consumers don’t need? If so, then high prices will result in lost sales.

    But if people need health care, high prices won’t discourage sales.

    You’re close to understanding part of economics — when you study economics, I’m sure you’ll enjoy it. But don’t forget to look at elasticity.

    And when you come to understand how markets work in health care, you’ll understand some of the fundamental flaws in your case. When someone is in an ambulance, unconscious from a stroke, the person has no ability to shop for best prices — nor should they do so. There’s about a one-hour window to get appropriate treatment to reduce damage.

    Market economics simply don’t work well in emergency rooms.

    That is why I’m so puzzled that you claim people have a right to free care in emergency rooms, and you use that to justify doing nothing. Even were that true across the board — and it’s not — market economics don’t work there, cost control is virtually impossible, and delivery of routine care would be the apex of stupidity, economically and health care-wise.

    But this isn’t good enough for liberals and something has to be done before allowing mother nature to take action.

    The Democrats MUST CONTROL CONGRESS, MUST CONTROL PEOPLE, MUST CONTROL BUSINESSES, MUST CONTROL YOUR LIVES! MUST SPEND MORE! and lets not forget… MUST RAISE TAXES to PAY FOR ALL OF IT!

    We’ve tried it your way for 40 years, Rocket, and it’s bankrupting the nation. Better to use some judicious regulation and save our nation than let it go down the crapper riding a turd like Slim Pickens riding the a-bomb in “Dr. Strangelove.” Unless, of course, you really hate America. I’m becoming convinced you really hate America.

    Ed, you have a distinct problem with reading comprehension and all you are doing is showing everyone here this problem.

    I have a clear distaste for stupid and cruel proposals based on false information. Don’t ever confuse genuine compassion and love of accuracy for a reading comprehension problem. I see exactly what you write, and it’s repugnant.

    I never said fixing the problem was socialism, B.O.’s solution IS socialism, the same with Liberal Democrats. WHat you and they DON’T GET is YOUR solution is not the ONLY solution! Just because you don’t like paying high prices for something does not mean the prices need to be changed, or that there is a problem for the government to fix (because you whine about the price) it means you SHOP SOMEWHERE ELSE.

    You can’t shop from an ambulance. I’m working hard not to track you down and punch you in the nose here. We held the funeral service for my mother-in-law this morning. Stroke. This isn’t an exercise in mental gymnastics for me as it appears to be for you. My experience with the health care system is more current and real than all of your hallucinating.

    You don’t have to be a fool to understand this simple concept, it only makes you a fool to try and fight it.

    You have to be a fool to ignore reality, however, which shows your simple concept is exactly what Ronald Reagan warned us about: There is no problem for which there is not a solution that is clear, simple, cheap and wrong.

    Conservatism doesn’t necessarily mean stupid and evil, Rocket. It should mean doing the right thing for the right reasons, too.

    I hope someday you’ll learn that. And abide by it.

    If this is truly right for you and the rest of the liberals to fight the price of private health care company services or products, you damn well better start fighting the oil companies, the refinery companies (which can be one in the same), the car insurance companies, the home owners insurance companies, property taxes (oh wait, democrats pay for everything by taxing, scratch that one), etc.

    We don’t allow oil companies to pollute willy-nilly. We regulate gasoline to keep the intellect-destroying tetraethyl lead out of it — though you’re making me wonder if the controls are tight enough.

    Health care shouldn’t be exempt from regulations to make it healthier, safer, more fair and less expensive. That’s not socialism, and it’s not counter-conservatism. It’s wisdom.

    We’ll be looking for you to call in the government to take control and fight all your battles of everything you cry about that is too expensive.

    Again, all summed up, you and the liberals ask not what you can do for your country, instead you ask what your country can do for you, the whiney, the spineless, the spoiled, the miserable, the incapable of supporting yourself, caring for yourself, let alone helping out your neighbor.

    If your neighbor is ill and cant afford insurance for health care (not life threatening) why aren’t you helping them out a bit? Oh, my bad, if the cash has to come from your pocket to give to a neighbor, no, no, no, that just wont do. Not when you can get the government to do it for you and make everyone pay for it, including your own kids.

    You are a real heros Ed and Nick.

    In pointing out your errors, Nick’s doing a great public service, yes.

    Like

  4. Rocket says:

    It’s really funny that democrats are all for democracy until the vote doesn’t go their way, then they just change the laws to make it “their way”.

    Just like they wont stand for the normal process of an empty seat in Mass., for the next 145 days until a special election can be held (because it threatens their control in congress), so you can bet your bottom tax dollar they will change the law to suit their needs.

    Mark my words, and I hope I am wrong.

    Like

  5. Rocket says:

    From the Tennessee Legal Aid Society PDF (http://www.tennlegalaid.com/Library/Documents/1150904389.52/ERcardweb_705.pdf/ERcardweb_705.pdf?topic_id=1000003&library=PublicWeb)

    “Can’t pay? Don’t have insurance,
    or TennCare or Medicare? You still
    have a legal right to get hospital
    care for an emergency or childbirth.
    ‘It’s against the law to turn you
    away because you can’t pay.’

    This does not mean the care is free.
    You may have to agree to pay later.”

    NY Legal Aid Society has a similar pamphlet, And Every State Legal Aid society all say the same thing.

    Once again you both are wrong. Just because you can’t find something or are as you said Ed, “unaware” (which is your standard ignorant fall back) doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

    This will be the last time I will do the work and SCHOOL you both.
    Slade v. Bloomberg, 45177/86 (Sup. Co. N.Y. Co.)
    Slade v. Koch, 135 Misc. 2d 283 (Sup. Ct. N.Y. Co. 1987)
    Slade v. Koch, 136 Misc. 2d 119 (Sup. Ct. N.Y. Co. 1987)

    There are numerous cases in many states. Just because you are too ignorant to find the cases don’t mean they dont exist.

    What a retarded argument you pose nick. You and Ed both used the statement in the declaration and the constitution article that the gov is required to maintain the general welfare of its citizens which I posted well before either of you as a response to other comments that the government must control the private sector of health insurance which was inaccurate. The gov is not required but does provide for the general welfare of citizens by making it illegal to refuse anyone emergency care in a “LIFE THREATENING” event.
    NO one is contending that its cheap health care to go to an emergency room. no one even contends that its not expensive to go to an emergency room. This is typical back pedaling by liberals who mount an argument by twisting the topic, and sidetracking on unrelated topics, cant stick to a topic and try to confuse people by injecting unrelated information.

    To top off this health care reform, overhaul whatever B.O’s phrase of the day is to get what he wants REGARDLESS of what american citizens want, if the bill is passed it wont become effective or law for 6 years. Thats right…oh you forgot to tell people that? Typical liberal.

    Which means the cost of this program that is supposed to be paid for by us, for us with our tax dollars wont be spread of 10 years, it will be spread over only 4, the last 4 of the 10 year span B.O. said it would be paid in.

    Now to put a lid on this crap. All the polls show how unpopular this “plan” (of yet another gov program to fail) is, not to mention the whiney, spineless liberals have NO PROBLEM passing this cost onto our kids and our kid’s kids. Not to mention that the Democrats (as usual) have vowed to “pay for health reform with spending cuts and ‘tax increases'” yet spending more has been what B.O. and his dems have been doing since taking office. Not to mention that all the democrats and B.O. proposals have ballooned the federal deficit projections (according to the White house’s Office of Management and budget) $9.05 TRILLION for the period of 2010-2019.

    10 TIMES that of the Bush administration. (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/)

    The “ENTIRE” argument that the gov “needs” to reform “PRIVATE” health care in American is WRONG. PERIOD.

    If you don’t like paying the price of health care to the company you choose, CHOOSE ANOTHER ONE that have prices you like. This is how every single business in america operates. THey set a price for their product and service, you get to choose which company to buy from. This is capitalism and free market.

    When the government steps in to take control of a private company and pricing of a product or service (which controls the production), this is socialism. Period. Any time the government takes control of a private business it is taking away a fundamental right our constitution endows us all with, the freedom to the pursuit of life, liberty and prosperity.

    If you truly don’t believe there is anything wrong with the government stepping in to control a company’s prices or production, then where the hell were you and the government when our gas prices starting going up. You werent pissed about that? you dont mind paying 2, 3, or 4 times what you are used to? Where is your rant about controlling something that you use EVERY SINGLE DAY that costs you far more than health insurance?

    The reason nothing was done is for the exact same reason I have been stating here in these posts all along that the liberal democrats will not accept. Capitalism and free market allows them to set their own prices. If you don’t like the price, buy somewhere else.

    Put your thick heads in the place of the health care companies for a moment. If you jack up the price of your care to your customers, how long before you lose all your customers? How long before your customers start shopping somewhere else? how long before your company crumbles under the free market system we live in?

    Hello!!! get a clue. Your company will die going down this road of increasing the price until no one can pay for it.

    This is a natural course. period.

    But this isn’t good enough for liberals and something has to be done before allowing mother nature to take action.

    The Democrats MUST CONTROL CONGRESS, MUST CONTROL PEOPLE, MUST CONTROL BUSINESSES, MUST CONTROL YOUR LIVES! MUST SPEND MORE! and lets not forget… MUST RAISE TAXES to PAY FOR ALL OF IT!

    Ed, you have a distinct problem with reading comprehension and all you are doing is showing everyone here this problem. I never said fixing the problem was socialism, B.O.’s solution IS socialism, the same with Liberal Democrats. WHat you and they DON’T GET is YOUR solution is not the ONLY solution! Just because you don’t like paying high prices for something does not mean the prices need to be changed, or that there is a problem for the government to fix (because you whine about the price) it means you SHOP SOMEWHERE ELSE.

    You don’t have to be a fool to understand this simple concept, it only makes you a fool to try and fight it.

    If this is truly right for you and the rest of the liberals to fight the price of private health care company services or products, you damn well better start fighting the oil companies, the refinery companies (which can be one in the same), the car insurance companies, the home owners insurance companies, property taxes (oh wait, democrats pay for everything by taxing, scratch that one), etc.

    We’ll be looking for you to call in the government to take control and fight all your battles of everything you cry about that is too expensive.

    Again, all summed up, you and the liberals ask not what you can do for your country, instead you ask what your country can do for you, the whiney, the spineless, the spoiled, the miserable, the incapable of supporting yourself, caring for yourself, let alone helping out your neighbor.

    If your neighbor is ill and cant afford insurance for health care (not life threatening) why aren’t you helping them out a bit? Oh, my bad, if the cash has to come from your pocket to give to a neighbor, no, no, no, that just wont do. Not when you can get the government to do it for you and make everyone pay for it, including your own kids.

    You are a real heros Ed and Nick.

    Like

  6. Nick Kelsier says:

    We haven’t been handed our hats, Rocket. You, however, have been handed your ass every time you open your mouth. You’ve been proven wrong and wrong again and instead of being an honest human being that has cajones you’ve constantly wussed out by spouting stupid inane things.

    Like

  7. Ed Darrell says:

    I said:

    If there is a good reason to oppose reform of our health care system, give us the reason without shouting falsely, “fire!” “socialism!” or “death panel!” will you Rocket? I don’t think you can. Surely you haven’t yet.

    Rocket responded:

    You have been given the reasons over and over again, you have been handed your hat. That hasn’t stopped you, and most likely never will. Your illness needs the immediate attention of a psychologist.

    Reason is not in your vocabulary.

    I want reasons, not slogans. I especially don’t want inaccurate, distorted or misleading slogans.

    So, your defense of paying too much for services we don’t get is . . . what? You said to fix the problem was “socialism.” So what? If socialism gives us better service at lower cost, it’s a bargain. A bargain is a bargain even if you call it socialism.

    I bid you farewell and good luck, you are going to need it.

    You’re not going to sit around repeating your errors and calling names? Our luck is improved already!

    Like

  8. Nick Kelsier says:

    Oh and by the way, there is at least one hospital in my area that has stopped emergency care because it’s too expensive for them.

    Well I take that back…it’s stopped emergency care for those who don’t have health insurance.

    Rocket, you are blind, you are ignorant, you are naive and you are a fool. It is time for you to shut up and let those who know better then you take care of the problem. Either that or educate yourself for once.

    Like

  9. Nick Kelsier says:

    Rocket writes:
    The general welfare of Americans is provided for PRIOR to individuals choosing their own private health insurance. No one is turned away from a hospital emergency room (without criminal charges being filed against that hospital).

    Pay attention here. EMERGENCY CARE IS FAR MORE EXPENSIVE THAN NON-EMERGENCY CARE.

    Like 3 to 5 times more expensive if not more. And who do you think pays for that when the person needing emergency care can’t?

    That’s right, child, you and me. In the form of higher insurance premiums and higher taxes. You want to pay higher insurance premiums or taxes why exactly?

    And all it does to the people using emergency care is either force them into bankruptcy or they simply can’t pay for it.

    So no, dimwit, the general welfare is not taken care of through emergency care.

    Like

  10. Ed Darrell says:

    The general welfare of Americans is provided for PRIOR to individuals choosing their own private health insurance. No one is turned away from a hospital emergency room (without criminal charges being filed against that hospital).

    None so blind as those who refuse to look.

    Emergency room turndowns are a major problem in many metropolitan areas. Criminal charges? I’ll wager you can’t find any such case (there is no criminal penalty of which I am aware; it’s a federal provision that requires hospitals to provide care, but it’s not federal criminal law; I’ll wager you can’t find civil penalties, either).

    Can you explain how ERISA (Employee Retirement Income Security Act)is legal, under your construction? How about the Taft-Hartley Act?

    When you’ve got a fact that supports your case, Rocket, let us know. Hasn’t happened yet.

    Like

  11. Rocket says:

    Nice and Ed, you two liberal idiots are prime candidates our next set of corrupt politicians. Nick, you really REALL need to keep up, as you are yet again a day late and a dollar short. I have already quoted article 1 section 8 in other related posts here where you have participated.

    Honestly, you two are really not the brightest liberals in the crayon box. The general welfare of Americans is provided for PRIOR to individuals choosing their own private health insurance. No one is turned away from a hospital emergency room (without criminal charges being filed against that hospital).

    You whiny spoiled liberal brats who “need” the government to provide you with everything because you haven’t got the spine, the upbringing or the backbone to go earn your keep in this country and THEN properly manage your income is incredibly tiresome.

    Lets put it this way to to sick liberal brats, If there were NO option to buy insurance, and you had to pay for your car and house and health care out of the money you HAVE IN YOUR POCKET, you spineless spoiled brats would surely die. Insurance pays for something you cant or don’t want to pay for yourself. Insurance premiums as miniscule portions of actual cost of service GIVEN to you (not a right). In other words, you pay a small portion for something through your insurance premiums and someone else pays for the rest.

    The whole purpose of insurance and the reason it is a profitable business is because the risk that FEWER people will file claims exists that premiums from other people that never file a claim, pay for your claim.
    You pathetic snot nosed spoiled brats.

    You pathetically sick liberals are of the “gimme gimme gimme” mentality and you will NEVER ask what you can do for our country, you will ALWAYS ask that the government do for YOU and your spoiled arses.

    Ed has taken it a bit further and through lies about what I said is treading dangerously on slander. For his sake he better go back and read what I said “in black and white” before his slander gets him in hot water. the lying is one thing that we must all tolerate from him, slander is another.

    Ed, you were given the details that were pertinent and required though I or anyone else is NOT under any obligation to give to you so that you can continue to twist the words like a true politician into something else. You have an illness, use your insurance and seek counseling.

    Its a shame Nick had to even school you on the red sash reference.

    |Rocket uses “socialism” as a substitute epithet for “evil.” Pressed for details, he |can’t tell us why preventing child abuse is evil (as the Heritage Foundation, for |example, alleges, again without reason), but he’s sure Nick’s wrong.

    You have a penchant for lies and a real illness Ed. A true politician. It’s a shame you will only garner the following of those you can fool and manipulate out of their own ignorance and lack of education.

    B.O. did it, there is no reason why you wont.

    And Nick, not that religion has ANY bearing on this whatsoever (nice try but fully expected from your type), you better check your facts again before you have the Baptist breathing down your neck on your inaccurate rant.

    How pathetic Ed
    |3. Look at the confusion Rocket has: On the one hand he says the market has |failed to provide doctors and nurses to provide the care required
    Flat out lie
    By all means Ed please continue to destroy your credibility. One has to wonder how you think your lies about me will fly when people can read what I have actually said. You do need help.

    |On the other hand, he says competition doesn’t work in the post office

    Never EVER said this. again, pathetic lie in an attempt to somehow elevate yourself. Didn’t anyone ever tell you that lying doesn’t elevate you or give you credibility?

    Why stop quoting my exact words, Huh Ed? Oh thats right. because you cant lie or change the words or the statement to support your own sick illness if you don’t quote me exactly.

    Amazes me that you think people cant read for themselves, and you think they are too stupid to see the difference between what I typed and what you typed??

    Get HELP!

    |If there is a good reason to oppose reform of our health care system, give us |the reason without shouting falsely, “fire!” “socialism!” or “death panel!” will |you Rocket? I don’t think you can. Surely you haven’t yet.

    You have been given the reasons over and over again, you have been handed your hat. That hasn’t stopped you, and most likely never will. Your illness needs the immediate attention of a psychologist.

    Reason is not in your vocabulary.

    I bid you farewell and good luck, you are going to need it.

    Like

  12. Anita says:

    Thanks so much for posting this with the picture and links. We appreciate it!

    Like

  13. Nick Kelsier says:

    From the CIA Worldbook at the CIA website. This is what they wrote regarding the US economy:

    The onrush of technology largely explains the gradual development of a “two-tier labor market” in which those at the bottom lack the education and the professional/technical skills of those at the top and, more and more, fail to get comparable pay raises, health insurance coverage, and other benefits. Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households. The war in March-April 2003 between a US-led coalition and Iraq, and the subsequent occupation of Iraq, required major shifts in national resources to the military. Hurricane Katrina caused extensive damage in the Gulf Coast region in August 2005, but had a small impact on overall GDP growth for the year. Soaring oil prices between 2005 and the first half of 2008 threatened inflation and unemployment, as higher gasoline prices ate into consumers’ budgets. Imported oil accounts for about two-thirds of US consumption. Long-term problems include inadequate investment in economic infrastructure, rapidly rising medical and pension costs of an aging population, sizable trade and budget deficits, and stagnation of family income in the lower economic groups.

    Do pay attention to the part about a two tier labor market. And then also pay attention to the part about “stagnation of family income.”

    It is the right wing who, if it happens, will bring actual socialism into this country. By continuing to ignore the problems and the people in front of their faces. By continuing to bring about the return of the aristocracy to this country 250+ years after we threw that yoke off.

    Like

  14. Nick Kelsier says:

    Forgot one thing in what I said.

    As I said before since 2001 insurance premiums have risen on average 75%. And even now they are trying to get the Senate Finance Committee, thanks to Senator’s Grassley and Baccus, to sign off on giving them the ability to make 35 cents of profit on every health care dollar spent. That’s higher then the casinos are allowed to keep. They want to shift an additional 15-20 cents of every health care dollar spent onto the consumers as the price their consumers will have to pay…on top of health insurance premiums.

    As I asked Lady before..where in the US Constitution does it say that we the American people are under an obligation to let the health insurance companies bend us over and rape us and that the government should just stand by and let it happen?

    I seem to recall the line is “We the people” not “We the corporations.’

    Like

  15. Nick Kelsier says:

    Oh you’re quite right, Mike. But the Catholic church has not exactly displayed much love for actual socialism.

    But what Rocket blathers on about isn’t actual socialism. By his definition of socialism the US military is an act of socialism.

    Insurance companies are forcing families into bankruptcy. They’re forcing companies to cut the benefits they give forcing even more people off health insurance. The health insurance companies decide who gets care and who doesn’t. They are killing people.

    And we should treat them as a sacred cow for what reason?

    Like

  16. Mike says:

    Just to dip in re socialism and Christianity – they are not mutually incompatible properties. Christian Socialism is alive and well in Europe and South America (in the guise of Liberation theology); and let’s not forget that one of the most famous American preachers of the 20thC was a social democrat: Martin Luther King.

    Just wanted to point it out for the sake of accuracy.

    Like

  17. Nick Kelsier says:

    The “red sash” comment is a reference to the red sashes that Johnny Ringo, the Clantons and their gang wore in the movie Tombstone starring Val Kilmer among others.

    Not sure that the Clanton gang and their compatriots wore red sashes in reality.

    Rocket, read Article 1 section 8 of the US Constitution. Here, I’ll even provide it for you. Pay attention to the part about “general welfare” and have fun arguing that ensuring that the people of the United States have adequate health care isn’t “general welfare.”

    US Constitution, Article 1 Section 8:
    Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    Now…what was that about socialism again? And do you really want to call the Catholic Church socialist as well? After all…according to Catholic Social Teachings everyone has the right to and is entitled to, among other things, health care.

    Have fun calling the single largest Christian denomonination both in this country and on the planet and the single largest religious sect on the planet “socialist” especially when the Catholic church bears some of the credit for bringing down the Soviet Union.

    Like

  18. Ed Darrell says:

    Ah, Rocket.

    1. Socialism is not a homonym for “government.” Socialism involves the actual control of outputs (if you’re using von Mises as a guide, for example, as conservatives do). Nothing in H.R. 3200 is socialism, as Rocket now knows since we challenged him to show us what part of the bill actually dictates outcomes, and he’s failed to do that.

    Rocket uses “socialism” as a substitute epithet for “evil.” Pressed for details, he can’t tell us why preventing child abuse is evil (as the Heritage Foundation, for example, alleges, again without reason), but he’s sure Nick’s wrong.

    I hate the smell of hubris any time of day.

    2. Medicare, Medicaid and VA are successful at delivering health care, and even at delivering quality health care at the least cost (e.g., Medicare and Medicaid process claims for under $1.00; private insurance companies are bumping ten times the cost). Medicare, Medicaid and VA have difficulties because there are too many people seeking to use the systems compared to the money allocated, plus, the incredible inflation of cost of health care hammers them. This is an ugly fact of life: Health care in the U.S. has been inflating at about 15% per year, higher than any other item in our shopping basket of goods and services, higher than every other nation in the industrialized world by two or three times.

    But Rocket doesn’t understand, or recognize, basic economics here — not in operation of market systems nor in definitions of socialism versus market. Not that definitions make a difference in the problems we face.

    Medicare, Medicaid and VA have problems. Providing access, delivering quality care, and cost control, are not among them. For the purposes of health reform, yes, they are good models to follow because they are so successful.

    3. Look at the confusion Rocket has: On the one hand he says the market has failed to provide doctors and nurses to provide the care required, and so, he claims, the government shouldn’t intervene though Medicare and Medicaid demonstrate government intervention provides access to care that the market doesn’t.

    On the other hand, he says competition doesn’t work in the post office (leaving aside the complete unreason of comparing health care to the mail), and that competition is driving costs up, so the USPS, he claims, is failing. Uh, don’t look now, Rocket, but competition is supposed to drive costs to consumers down.

    4. Probably realizing subconsciously that his economics arguments are impossibly messy and irrational, he resorts to baseless name-calling. Dictatorship? Where in the bill, Rocket? The lowest standard of care is raised — no more booting people out of hospitals because they are already ill (pre-existing conditions). This must come as a shock to some who claim to be conservative, but the purpose of the health care system is to deliver health care to people; profits are secondary, if they can be achieved. But just as we don’t expect chlorination of water and delivery of sanitary water to homes and businesses to turn a huge profit despite the huge benefits to health, neither should we expect all medical care to be rationed by patchwork tests of income, shutting out even middle class people who lack insurance.

    The purpose of health care systems is to deliver health care, not profits to a few bosses.

    Yeah, Rocket is so blinded he doesn’t recognize that in his side of the court are grotesque exaggerations, like claims of dictatorship and socialism, not to mention the bordering-on-pure-evil claims of “death panels,” child abuse prevention as socialism, and gross slanders at successful systems (tell us Rocket — do you still think Stephen Hawking would be dead under Britain’s NHS?).

    If there is a good reason to oppose reform of our health care system, give us the reason without shouting falsely, “fire!” “socialism!” or “death panel!” will you Rocket? I don’t think you can. Surely you haven’t yet.

    Red Capes…wow, just like the red sashes of the lawless gang “the cowboys” from the days of Wyatt Earp.

    Too obscure for me. It sounds more like what Lex Luther says every time Superman shows up, though even Lex knows you can’t beat Superman by trying to poke fun at his cape. Better red capes than red faced, caught-red-handed at telling fantastic falsehoods.

    Like

  19. Rocket says:

    Red Capes…wow, just like the red sashes of the lawless gang “the cowboys” from the days of Wyatt Earp.

    Like

  20. Rocket says:

    |Nick Kelsier Says:
    |August 22, 2009 at 1:59 pm
    |Oh look, Hattip has no idea what socialism actually is.

    And you do? you proved beyond a shadow of a doubt you don’t in other posts as well as showed that the money spent on your degrees in Political Science was a waste. I have to laugh at people that pat themselves on the back that they have a degree (or more) and then display how useless those degrees have become.

    |Get this through your little head, Hattip. The government is already in the |health care game. What do you think medicare is? What do you think the VA |hospitals are? Where do you think your precious Republican leaders in |Congress get their health care from? That’s right..the government.

    You gotta love a guy that blows his own horn by assuming he knows what he is talking about and has to resort to name calling in his posts to make himself feel better. Lets look at the facts. Since the liberal democrats are so convinced that medicare and medicaid aren’t failing, and there isn’t anything wrong with the VA system (try telling that one to military veterans across the country and who have suffered in the broken failing system at Walter Reed), then there should be no reason for ANOTHER option for health care created by the government. Yet here we are, with liberal democrats pushing for another program to toss onto the failed gov’t programs pile at the cost of the american people.

    |So ask yourself this question..if they’re so against government providing health |insurance…why do they take it themselves?

    What an asinine question. The government already provides health insurance called medicare, medicaid and chips. SOME politicians and civilians are against “another one” to compete with private health care in order to supposedly drive down the cost of private health care and provide 40 million uninsured people with affordable health care. Of course you with a degree in political science would know that wont work. Where are you going to find all the doctors to provide health care to 40 million more people? Where are the facilities? Where will the nursing and staff come from?

    As a prime example of why this whole liberal democrat socialist plant wont work is the Postal system, which is created by the government and failing. Why? Because the price of postage is skyrocketing due to UPS and FedEx showing up on the scene to compete with the USPS. Did that force the USPS prices down? No, the prices went up. The wages for USPS workers are well above FedEx and UPS workers. The USPS is having to shut down post offices across the country and continue to raise postage costs just to be able to pay wages and balance their books. So now the government wants to introduce health care competition to the private sector (VA is for veterans it is NOT publicly offered) thinking it will drive down costs of private health care? To most of us that sounds like an attack by our government on the private businesses in America. and I will Quote B.O. “I will guarantee you, we are going to get health care reform done” as was heard by millions on the Michael Smerconish radio show where B.O. was a guest. “we’re going to get this done one way or the other”. WOW, That sounds dangerously like the government DICTATING to the public what they WILL/ARE doing, without OUR consent, without our vote, and sounds dangerously like an Ultimatum.

    Dictatorship
    Socialism
    Democracy

    Seems to me that Dictatorship is at the top of that hierarchy.

    |The lies are on your side of the fence, the idiocy is on your side of the fence.

    Really Nick? I think you proved otherwise.

    Like

  21. Foxwood says:

    Do you believe the Constitution is the rule of law? Do you believe in the original intent of our founding fathers? Do you want to reform Congress? If your answer is yes, we have to work together to make this happen.

    http://animal-farm.us/change/constitution-project-575

    Like

  22. Nick Kelsier says:

    Oh look, Hattip has no idea what socialism actually is.

    Get this through your little head, Hattip. The government is already in the health care game. What do you think medicare is? What do you think the VA hospitals are? Where do you think your precious Republican leaders in Congress get their health care from? That’s right..the government.

    So ask yourself this question..if they’re so against government providing health insurance…why do they take it themselves?

    The lies are on your side of the fence, the idiocy is on your side of the fence.

    Like

  23. Hattip says:

    Pal, the health care debate IS on track, it is drillig into the lies of the Democrati party as they try to foist on us this socilist coup of theirs. This ridiculous attempt at mimicing the real grass roots efforts of regular Americans will not work, it is so transparent–and of course, preposterously lacking and anything approach seriousness or sobriety. How very Democrat. It is obvious what they are; Democrat useful idots, right down to unwittingly draping themselves in the red banners. Honestly, one cannot make stuff like this up. If you think that this is a serious contribution, you are mistaken, this is just more left wing agitprop. They only fool Democrat stooges like you.

    You are an unwitting tool for the enemies of your nation.

    Face it, the Demo let the mask slip, the people know now what they are about. The middle finally sees it. 2010 will make 1994 look like a Sunday school picnic. One can just smell the fear and the panic in Democratic leadership, and now it is growing in their rank and file. Your hustle if the American taxpayer is nearing the end.

    Barking about “Democracy and republican government” when the Democrat are pursuing decidedly unconstitutional and undemocratic Communist policies? Policies wholly outside our norms and traditions?

    You should be ashamed of yourself.

    Like

  24. HMS says:

    Ed, as we mentioned in our email, we’d like to invite you to become one of our Authors in Alexandria. You may mirror your existing posts from here or elsewhere or produce original posts there, as you desire. For your contributions and participation we will blogroll you with no reciprocation required. Come contribute your perspectives and opinions to the ongoing conversations there. Contact us through the site or by return email for full invitations and instructions.

    Like

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