If stupid and arrogance shone like the Sun . . .


. . . we could solve all energy crises forevermore.

Over at Watt’s Up With That, the leading anti-science blog on the web, Anthony Watt turned the podium over to the indefatigable, often inscrutable, sometimes-funny-but-almost-always wrong, Willis Eschenbach, who worries about when solar power may run out:

Their study includes “renewable” sources like solar, although I’ve never found out exactly how they plan to renew the sun once it runs out.

In a just and sane world, Dave Barry would be preparing to sue Eschenbach for infringing on Barry’s humor patent.

Just when will energy from Old Sol run out?  The Sun will die one day, but well after President Obama’s second term has expired, and long after all current photo-voltaic devices have worn out from providing cheap energy.

The facts:

Our Sun won’t last forever. Dr. Carolyn Brinkworth explains the ramifications for our home planet in this ‘Ask an Astronomer’ video.

Vodpod videos no longer available.

What Will Happen to the Earth When the Sun Dies?, posted with vodpod

Shorter Eschenbach:  Don’t worry about cleaning the air to fight global warming, because in the looooooooooooooooooooooooooooong run, we’re all dead.  Certainly after 4 billion years.

 

42 Responses to If stupid and arrogance shone like the Sun . . .

  1. Alan Scott says:

    Pangolin,

    ” The thing is Alan; you support treason. You support the destruction of your country in order to prop up the profits of a few. You’re an unreconstructed holdout of the War of Southern Treason who still can’t accept that people who are different than him are equally human.

    Oh, and you’re a liar. ”

    I am not a liar or a traitor. You believe that all bad things are my fault. Fine. I respect that you believe in what you say. I believe that your side is destroying America. They controlled both Houses of Congress from 2007, which is when America crashed, until 2010. They still control the Presidency and the Senate.

    Now tell me, what the hell are they responsible for ? They have held real power, yet anything that goes wrong for the last 3 to 5 years is my side’s fault ! Your guys are just sitting up there in Washington causing no harm to anyone ?

    Open your eyes.

    Like

  2. Alan Scott says:

    Pangolin,

    First of all I agree with you on a few things. It makes me want to throw up, but you accidentally careened into truth. I agree on Ethanol. Both parties kiss up to that lobby big time. It caused higher food prices and did nothing to reduce the use of oil.

    ” Tonight I’m proposing $1.2 billion in research funding so that America can lead the world in developing clean, hydrogen-powered automobiles. ”

    ” That was a massive, massive loser. ”

    I agree on that also. But since you brought it up, how about doing the research and find out which companies got the money and if they went bankrupt like so many others. You could make brownie points if you can find that the money went to Bush bundlers, the same way Obama sent money to his bundlers at Solyndra.

    ” Also why was gas so expensive in the summer of 2008? As I recall there would be a pipeline bombing in Nigeria or Iraq and the price of oil would jump as if on cue. It was almost as if Wall Street commodities speculators were ordering them up on demand to allow them to profit off a volatile oil market. ”

    You know it’s almost like I am speaking to someone knowledgeable. You are almost there in your understanding of world events. Here is a clue, there is always a pipeline in Nigeria or Iraq blowing up. There are always speculators and hedge funds moving money in fractions of a second in and out of oil. It only matters when supplies or perceived supplies are tight.

    Which is why we need supply, supply, supply. It ain’t rocket science. Now remember when the economy crashed and oil went from about $142 per barrel to around $32 per barrel. Demand died and speculators got crushed by too much oil. When you have lots of supply those swings do not tend to happen .

    And do not think it is Wall Street, Wall Street, Wall Street. Speculators and Hedge Funds are in London too and all over the Globe. So when the OWS idiots burn down Wall Street it still will not matter .

    Like

  3. Pangolin says:

    The hydrogen car hoax outlined here:
    http://knol.google.com/k/the-hydrogen-car-hoax#
    and here: http://www.recoverybydiscovery.com/hydrogen.htm

    Iraq war justifications debunked here:
    http://www.americanprogress.org/kf/priraqclaimfact1029.htm

    Alan Greenspan admits Iraq war about oil….http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/16/iraq.iraqtimeline

    More Iraq war oil documentation.
    http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2011-04-23/surprise-surprise-iraq-war-was-about-oil

    “Secret memos expose link between oil firms and invasion of Iraq”

    So it looks like when we’re talking about energy we have the liberal side and the treasonous side.

    Like

  4. Pangolin says:

    Running down Alan’s new list of sock-puppet fallacy from the top….

    The bank bailouts happened in 2008. As I recall that was the realm of the child-emperor G.W. Bush. The banks needed to be bailed out because of the repeal of Glass-Steagal pushed by three Republican Senators.

    Let’s talk about picking winners and losers. In his 2003 State of The Union speech George W. Bush said…

    Tonight I’m proposing $1.2 billion in research funding so that America can lead the world in developing clean, hydrogen-powered automobiles.

    That was a massive, massive loser. The physics were then, and always will be, that you cannot power an automobile with hydrogen as cheaply as you can with battery power. It was a loser chosen to cover another massive lie. The lie that led the U.S. to invade Iraq. We were there for oil. Only oil. But Bush had to pretend that he was all for alternative energy sources without actually risking that they would ever be implemented.

    Shall we talk about the futility of ethanol fuel subsidies? Subsidies that were signed off every year in Bush’s budgets. Ethanol produces no net energy; none. It’s a bribe to Midwestern Red states. Diesel fuel, pesticides, herbicides and natural gas in one side plus subsidy $$$; ethanol out the other. It also reduces miles-per-gallon when blended with gasoline. Buy more; get less.

    Also why was gas so expensive in the summer of 2008? As I recall there would be a pipeline bombing in Nigeria or Iraq and the price of oil would jump as if on cue. It was almost as if Wall Street commodities speculators were ordering them up on demand to allow them to profit off a volatile oil market. That volatile oil market destroyed tens of thousands of american businesses that saw their margins evaporate because they had already signed contracts assuming lower fuel costs.

    The thing is Alan; you support treason. You support the destruction of your country in order to prop up the profits of a few. You’re an unreconstructed holdout of the War of Southern Treason who still can’t accept that people who are different than him are equally human.

    Oh, and you’re a liar.

    Like

  5. Alan Scott says:

    James Kessler,

    ” Alan writes:
    You and Mr. Obama have just picked winners in another industry.

    Oh you mean like your party did with the banking industry? ”

    Specifics, specifics, specifics. How about laying out the details of what you are talking about?

    And now I will give you another specific example of our President, your hero, picking winners and losers, and being wrong, , , again. Here is an article on Obama’s electric car industry, and as always it fails.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/for-obamas-green-car-revolution-fits-and-starts/2011/11/29/gIQA0FdRdO_story.html

    Please note that I went out of my way to choose an Obama media outlet to source my outrage. I did not want you green socialists to accuse me of usin one of them thar lying right wing ‘ business ‘ publications.

    ” You mean like when your party did when it fought tooth and nail to protect Big Oil’s subsidies? ”

    Oil is a real business. After subsidies it pays real taxes. Your green crap is always a big net loss to me and the rest of my fellow taxpayers. Now I regret I have to stoop to using the Wall St Journal as a source to show which energy sources get the real subsidies.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB121055427930584069.html

    I took the liberty of making my own summary of the figures from the article.:

    Solar Subsidy = $24.34 per megawatt hour
    Wind Subsidy = $23.37 per megawatt hour
    “clean coal” = $29.81 per megawatt hour
    Coal = $.44 per megawatt hour
    Hydroelectric = $.67 per megawatt hour
    Nuclear = $1.59 per megawatt hour
    Non Electric Energy Production
    ethanol and biofuels = $5.72 per BTU
    Solar = $2.82 per BTU
    Refined Coal = $1.35
    Natural Gas = $.03
    Petroleum Liquids = $.03

    Now do you really want to complain about subsidies?

    ” You mean like your party did when it fought tooth and nail to protect the health care industry? ”

    Yes Doctors and Nurses and Hospitals really suck, don’t they ?

    ” Your intellectual dishonesty, Alan, is amazing. ”

    That is the one thing I am not. For me to be dishonest, I would have to not believe in what I am writing.

    ” Apparently you are fine with millions of people being out of jobs if it means your party gets power.

    That’s amazingly sociopathic. ”

    The proper term is projection. You are projecting onto my party what you guys did while George W. Bush was in office. Two things crashed the economy. First was the juicing up of home mortgages. Barney Frank and his pals at Fannie and Freddie caused a lot of that. In fact as I recall he got one of his boy friends a nice cushy job at one of the GSEs.

    Second was the high price of oil. Gasoline over $4 per gallon. Once again your guys by blocking all non green energy caused that.

    And it worked. 2008 would have never happened if you guys had not crashed the economy and blamed Bush .

    ” How much of the United States has to burn to the ground, Alan, for you to be satisified? how much of it has to be rendered destitute for you to recognize that your party has gone too far? ”

    Again you are projecting. We are desperately trying to save what little is left of America from the hapless clowns you personally put in power.

    And I have little hope there will be anything there when we finally throw out your bums.

    ” When do you start putting the country, Alan, ahead of your party? Because you sure haven’t yet. And neither has your party.

    You probably wrote that with a straight face. Have you even looked at the record Obama has? How much more can America take?

    Like

  6. Ed Darrell says:

    What those policies will get them is a soviet-style command economy.

    Unchecked pollution? Yeah, that’s a pretty good description of what the Soviet Union did. An unspoken yearning for “Uncle Joe” Stalin by American conservatives really is not a pretty sight.

    Like

  7. Pangolin says:

    …..command economy cont’d.

    What’s going to happen when oil production inevitably declines and prices double or triple? There will be panic buying of petroleum products, ration cards, price controls, travel restrictions a black market and corruption to get around all that. That is if we don’t implement alternative transportation systems before the crisis. It’s how capitalism deals with production crashes in basic commodities.

    What’s going to happen when the inevitable Climate Change pumped droughts and storms force the evacuation of large regional areas? There will refugee marches, refugee camps, commodities controls, price controls, housing controls, food ration cards, a black market in children and women that always sprouts from refugee camps. There will be widespread unemployment, massive, confiscatory, taxes, labor drafts, internal use of armed forces etc. etc, etc. Florida is effectively a massive refugee camp now. “Homeless-Florida-families”…google it.

    Who will demand all these draconian actions? The current conservatives. They will do it because the alternative would be hordes of bedraggled people populating the intersections of roads begging, then roadblocking, then moving into neighborhoods demanding a share of the national wealth. The conservatives will demand a police state because that is a far, far better alternative for them than sharing said wealth.

    You don’t believe me? Look at the organized effort by conservatives to justify the police attack on UC Davis students. A group of students sitting on the ground are assaulted with a potentially fatal chemical agent. They are obviously no threat to the police officer doing the assault as he casually strolls up, unloads the pepper spray and strolls away. Stasi agents of Communist East Germany couldn’t have gotten away with that kind of behavior. That’s why the Berlin Wall came down.

    Who’s fighting for capitalism now?

    Like

  8. Pangolin says:

    In reality, Alan, it is Ed, Pangolin, me and all those OWS protestors and other liberals you so love to hate that are trying to protect capitalism._James

    This is the part that I really don’t understand about U.S. conservatives. My ultra-liberal friends want an economy that has the flexibility to allow them space to weld bicycle frames, start farming without inheriting land, sew up and sell clothing, build energy efficient houses and engage in several dozen other forms of creative/productive activity.

    The conservatives want WalMart, five giant banks, one domestic automobile manufacturer. They want a crippled transportation system without trains or airlines because both require heavy government involvement to operate. They want every fish from every pond poisoned with mercury so the coal industry doesn’t have to suffer regulation. They want the world’s largest prison system to be even larger, harsher and more destructive of human capital. They want unmitigated climate change and no disaster relief agency when the damage invariably comes.

    What those policies will get them is a soviet-style command economy.

    Like

  9. James Kessler says:

    Alan writes:
    Again Detroit and the UAW made their products uncompetitive by rolling far too many health and pension costs into every car they made. That structure royally screwed them when volume tanked.

    Let me know when the executives are going to give up their health and pensions then you can talk, Alan.

    And let me know when you’re going to bother to remember that in those other countries it’s their governments that provide the health care and other things.

    You want to know what puts us at a competitive disadvantage, Alan? It’s your party refusing to alter the health care and pension system in this country so that it’s the same as the rest of the western industrialized world.

    Because since your party insists on forcing companies to take care of their employee’s health care and pensions instead of letting the government take that burden on its shoulders then that means those companies are at a disadvantage.

    And instead of accepting the solution that would help the companies and the people both at the same time you and your party insist on screwing over the workers at every turn.

    Because for some reason you seem to think that the workers in this country should get paid less and have to pay more. And then like a fool you’ll pat yourself on the back thinking you’ve done such a good thing for the country by screwing over the workers, making the rich richer and making this country less competitive.

    In reality, Alan, it is Ed, Pangolin, me and all those OWS protestors and other liberals you so love to hate that are trying to protect capitalism.

    You’re trying to destroy it by ensuring that it collapses in on itself because of the flaws in the system that you refuse to do anything to correct.

    Like

  10. James Kessler says:

    Alan writes:
    You and Mr. Obama have just picked winners in another industry.

    Oh you mean like your party did with the banking industry?
    You mean like when your party did when it fought tooth and nail to protect Big Oil’s subsidies? Curiously though they have a problem with the ethanol subisides and yet Big Oil is far better able to survive without it’s subsidies then ethanol.
    You mean like your party did when it fought tooth and nail to protect the health care industry?
    Or any of the other examples I can give…

    Your intellectual dishonesty, Alan, is amazing. Because we all knows that if the Democrats hadn’t bailed out the auto industry you and yours would be kvetching that they didn’t. Since your side was going to kvetch no matter what happens we might as well do it anyways and save people their jobs.

    You’re not actually kvetching that they bailed out the auto industry..you’re kvetching because they did it and it worked. That’s what you’re mad at really. That it worked and you didn’t get your wish of millions of people out of work and the unions destroyed.

    Apparently you are fine with millions of people being out of jobs if it means your party gets power.

    That’s amazingly sociopathic.

    How much of the United States has to burn to the ground, Alan, for you to be satisified? how much of it has to be rendered destitute for you to recognize that your party has gone too far?

    When do you start putting the country, Alan, ahead of your party? Because you sure haven’t yet. And neither has your party. Are you an American first or a Republican first?

    Like

  11. Alan Scott says:

    Pangolin,

    ” Alan_The CEO of Ford Motor Company was for the auto company bailout in 2009. ”

    I am against bailouts, but guess what , , , , I would take em if my competitors were getting them. You really have no understanding of business, do you ?

    ” I don’t read “business sources” that often because aside from when they are reciting lists of numbers they are staggeringly wrong. ”

    Wow, how did I know ? Maybe if you actually invested in America, you would have a stake in it’s future. I have been an investor in America since the late 70s. Which is why I hate Marxists. By the way, do you actually work for a living or are you in the guvment? Maybe you get an entitlement check ?

    ” Wrong on stock tips.(remember “buy Enron” calls) ”

    I missed that. I never bought Enron. Sorry I missed the buy Solyndra and buy MF Global calls run by leading Democrats.

    ” You’re “smelly dirty hippies” comment about OWS protestors shows you simply don’t know jack about the movement. ”

    Lets see, they riot, they attack the police, they stop other citizens from getting to ‘ their ‘ jobs, they deny other citizens the use of public spaces, and they do not cooperate with authorities investigating the rapes of women with in the tents they sleep in. No, I would say I know all the jack I need to .

    ” Keep pushing the pension hate; I love it. The first chance I get when I talk to a police officer I mention that “they”, meaning conservatives, are after their pensions. ”

    You go ahead and do that. They don’t put you in jail just for lying to authorities, do they ? Not unless you are Martha Stewart.

    Like

  12. Ed Darrell says:

    Oh, no, Obama is not the leader of the morons. They refuse to follow him.

    Like

  13. Ed Darrell says:

    To put credence in the idea that wind power doesn’t work, you ask me to believe that T. Boone Pickens is a fool and cannot tell a bad investment to stay away from; you ask me to believe that GE, one of the most competitive companies every, cannot tell that they should not double-down their investment in making wind turbines; and you ask me believe that the successful wind projects in the Norse countries have somehow failed spectacularly in the three months since “60 Minutes” did the puff piece on them; and you ask me to believe that wind doesn’t blow reliably in Texas, or Idaho, or Mount Washington in New Hampshire.

    Got any of that stuff you’re smoking you’d care to share?

    Like

  14. Ed Darrell says:

    If you could show me a graph or something which shows where Toyota and the rest of the car companies get their parts it would be useful. I will concede that after the Tsunami in Japan, Toyota had more problems than the American companies getting supplies. However , the other companies get many of their parts abroad also.

    If you read business sources, you’ll get the information. Even U.S. built Toyotas get a high number of parts from Japanese manufacturers, especially transmissions and key engine components, and electronics. In contrast, none of those parts come from farther than Canada in GM or Chrysler products, or Ford.

    Again Detroit and the UAW made their products uncompetitive by rolling far too many health and pension costs into every car they made. That structure royally screwed them when volume tanked.

    That’s funny, almost. Toyota in Japan doesn’t have that problem because health care is a government system. Automakers in England, Germany, France and Italy don’t have that problem because their health plans are single-payer government plans.

    I’ll wager you would not support making our health care in the U.S. a single-payer, government system, in order to help the automakers out, would you?

    When push comes to shove, most conservatives would just as soon shove American business under the bus as eat ice cream for dessert. What’s American business done for American conservatives lately, eh?

    You also had UAW workers being paid for nothing because their jobs were eliminated over time.

    In Japan, the government provides a program to compensate workers displaced in this fashion — that way the costs don’t fall on the company. Is that what you urge, too?

    All of this was included in their costs. But you know what, splaining anything to you is a waste of time. I remember reading how GM was doomed years ago. Chrysler and Ford had similar trouble thanks to your good buddies at the UAW.

    You can explain to me what the problem is, but it’s clear you’ve not been reading the business journals, let alone the newspapers and union newsletters, to figure out what the issues are, let alone how to solve them.

    I am not anti union, just anti stupid.

    Is there somewhere we can see evidence of your claim? You’re blaming the unions for doing what the governments in other industrialized nations do at taxpayer expense. You should be pro-union, and kissing their feet, no? If unions do the job, and get those companies to provide the benefits at no taxpayer expense, it allows our modern Robber Barons to accumulate more wealth (also at your expense). Isn’t that what you want?

    The union blocked all necessary change until the bottom dropped out and Uncle Obama saved their butts. There was no freaking reason for it to happen except greed and stupidity. Here is an article from 2005. Everybody saw it coming and did nothing.

    As I said, you should read the business journals and newspapers. In Chrysler’s case, and in GM’s case, the unions had given back major concessions on the previous three contracts. Not enough. Your version of history is simply wrong, and it appears to have led you into wrong conclusions as a result.

    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_19/b3932001_mz001.htm

    I’m sorry, but if you are this stupid, you should fail. Ford took action before it was too late. Toyota did not load itself up with unsustainable costs.

    You really ought to read business sources if you want to know what you are talking about. For all that you hate about investors, they are a necessary evil and you screw them over at your peril. Your moron leader Obama is finding that out.

    And you should come visit America sometime. I think you’ll find the nation much different than portrayed in your television dramas that you see wherever it is you live.

    (Did you think I wouldn’t notice that the article you offer is one I cited a few hours ago?)

    Like

  15. Pangolin says:

    Alan_The CEO of Ford Motor Company was for the auto company bailout in 2009.
    http://www.factcheck.org/2011/09/ford-motor-co-does-u-turn-on-bailouts/

    You’re “smelly dirty hippies” comment about OWS protestors shows you simply don’t know jack about the movement. You haven’t even bothered to watch the YouTube videos. Over half the movement is over 30. Most have college degrees. Many have graduate degrees. We’ve had veterans from every war from WWII on show up in support.

    Keep pushing the pension hate; I love it. The first chance I get when I talk to a police officer I mention that “they”, meaning conservatives, are after their pensions. They know it too. It’s not helping you with career military either.

    I don’t read “business sources” that often because aside from when they are reciting lists of numbers they are staggeringly wrong. Wrong on pollution controls. Wrong on Climate Change. Wrong on minimum wages. Wrong on economic forecasts. Wrong on stock tips.(remember “buy Enron” calls)

    Oh, and U.S. currency is literally whistled up from nothing on a computer. A technician hits the “create money” key and billions of dollars of unique numbers are created on a hard drive to represent billions in currency. They don’t even print it. Most “money” in circulation is literally as ephemeral as a spark you get when you cross a dry carpet.

    Do try and get in touch with reality someday.

    Like

  16. Alan Scott says:

    Ed Darrell,

    To address Greenspan. For all of your nonsense about financial deregulation, it was regulated. Regulators like Greenspan dropped the ball. He didn’t understand the complicated new products Wall Street was cooking up to hide the risk they were injecting into the banking system . It was his job to know.

    Like

  17. Alan Scott says:

    Ed Darrell,

    If you could show me a graph or something which shows where Toyota and the rest of the car companies get their parts it would be useful. I will concede that after the Tsunami in Japan, Toyota had more problems than the American companies getting supplies. However , the other companies get many of their parts abroad also.

    Again Detroit and the UAW made their products uncompetitive by rolling far too many health and pension costs into every car they made. That structure royally screwed them when volume tanked. You also had UAW workers being paid for nothing because their jobs were eliminated over time. All of this was included in their costs. But you know what, splaining anything to you is a waste of time. I remember reading how GM was doomed years ago. Chrysler and Ford had similar trouble thanks to your good buddies at the UAW.

    I am not anti union, just anti stupid. The union blocked all necessary change until the bottom dropped out and Uncle Obama saved their butts. There was no freaking reason for it to happen except greed and stupidity. Here is an article from 2005. Everybody saw it coming and did nothing.

    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_19/b3932001_mz001.htm

    I’m sorry, but if you are this stupid, you should fail. Ford took action before it was too late. Toyota did not load itself up with unsustainable costs.

    You really ought to read business sources if you want to know what you are talking about. For all that you hate about investors, they are a necessary evil and you screw them over at your peril. Your moron leader Obama is finding that out.

    Like

  18. mark says:

    That reminds me of the old joke: After the astronomy lecture, a student asked the speaker to say again when he expected the sun to burn out. “Oh, 20 Billion years–thank God, I thought you said 20 Million years!”

    Like

  19. Ed Darrell says:

    Lets see if I can make this understandable. The auto industry does so many billions of dollars in business. Whether it is the two Obama charity cases or Ford and Toyota. Either way the money and business for the workers and the parts industry is the same. You and Mr. Obama have just picked winners in another industry.

    No, that’s not the case at all. Had either GM or Chrysler gone down, unemployment in some Midwest states probably would have hovered near 25%. Those parts manufacturers make GM parts, not Toyota parts. Toyota has a different supply chain entirely.

    This is basic historical knowledge. Delco was spun off from GM decades ago — it had been part of the company, and for some time it manufactured parts exclusively for GM. The Ford in Libbey-Owens-Ford was Ford Motor. Firestone and other U.S. tire manufacturers located where they could supply the automakers easily. TRW holds some of the key U.S. patents on auto parts, like airbags, but Japan uses different systems, different patents, and different suppliers. According to rational analysts at the time:

    Millions of jobs: General Motors employs 123,000 people, and losing those jobs would be bad enough. But GM’s demise could set off a chain reaction that might cost the country almost 3 million jobs.

    David Welch made the same argument in Bloomberg’s BusinessWeek — no liberal bastion of unreason.

    (See this contrary analysis at BusinessWeek; even later cynicism from the always cynical, too-often fact contrary Reason; Catherine Rampell blogged about it for the New York Times.)

    Alan Greenspan used to argue the Ayn Rand line, that people displaced would get jobs in other industries. It was in the last couple of months of his tenure at the Fed that someone asked him how soon those jobs would come, and he confessed it could take 20 years. So the jobs lost would stay lost for those who lost them, and the “new” jobs would go to their children, or the children of others.

    3 million unemployed, probably unemployable people (by the choice of the billionaires, not their own), would be a helluva drag on the U.S. economy.

    Can you say “Hooverville?” Can you say “neutron bomb?”

    Jobs for Toyota in Japan are not the same as jobs in Arlington, Texas, for GM. Heck, jobs for Toyota in Tennessee aren’t the same, either.

    Obama was right, and he saved the economy. Recognize reality on that, will you?

    Like

  20. Alan Scott says:

    Pangolin,

    ” Wind power works. It produces power with minimal pollution and pays for itself. ”

    That is false. That you believe it, is a tragedy.

    Like

  21. Alan Scott says:

    James Kessler,

    ” Why do you believe that the average worker should be deprived of their pensions and should be paid less then they are? ”

    Why do you ask that question? I do not believe the average worker should take a pay cut or lose their pension. I just know that you don’t have a clue about how those pensions and wages get paid. To a left winger such as yourself , there is a money fairy that prints up the dollar bills in her pumpkin coach. That is until the evil Republican grinch seduces her and steals all of the money.

    ” Oh yes, we should have let the auto industry collapse and tens of millions of people put out of work. And all just so the right wing can continue their irrational anti-union crusade.

    That would have done such wonders for the US economy….

    Oh wait….it would completely crashed the economy. Of course the Republican leadership and their masters wouldn’t have minded that since the rich and the insanely rich tend to survive such calamity’s. ”

    News flash, the auto industry did crash. tens of millions are out of work. The same amount of people working now would be the same as if Obama did not bail out the UAW. A certain amount of people will work in the Auto and Auto related industries depending on Auto sales . Obama did completely crash the economy. Your worthless socialist hero did it by bashing parts of the economy he disapproved of. He did it by class warfare. He did it by scaring the investor class. He did it to keep the socialist smelly hippies of OWS rioting in the streets. He did it to keep folks like you on his side.

    ” Oh wait….it would completely crashed the economy. Of course the Republican leadership and their masters wouldn’t have minded that since the rich and the insanely rich tend to survive such calamity’s. ”

    The rich would like to invest and spend their riches. If that happened the birds would sing, the Sun would shine, and all would be right in Obamamerica. But alas, you are living the 1917 revolution. You guys made sure the Tsar and the rest of the insanely rich did not survive. How did that work out anyway ?

    ” The small little fries like Alan…not so much.

    Once again we have Alan…a masochist willing to act completely against his own interests for absolutely no gain. ”

    So I am the poor peasant who will not go along with the rest of your Jacobin mob ?

    Show me where your beliefs work and I will jump right on your turnip wagon. North Korea, Cuba, or Venezuela ?

    Like

  22. James Kessler says:

    Alan, if you wouldn’t mind answering this question:

    Why do you believe that the average worker should be deprived of their pensions and should be paid less then they are?

    Like

  23. James Kessler says:

    Oh yes, we should have let the auto industry collapse and tens of millions of people put out of work. And all just so the right wing can continue their irrational anti-union crusade.

    That would have done such wonders for the US economy….

    Oh wait….it would completely crashed the economy. Of course the Republican leadership and their masters wouldn’t have minded that since the rich and the insanely rich tend to survive such calamity’s.

    The small little fries like Alan…not so much.

    Once again we have Alan…a masochist willing to act completely against his own interests for absolutely no gain.

    Honestly Alan, I can’t decide if you’re a real life Frank Burns, Colonel Flag, Walter Peck, or Chip Diller.

    Like

  24. Pangolin says:

    Alan_ Your circular argument is circular.

    You insist wind doesn’t work. Ed, James and myself throw up numerous industry figures showing power outputs, payback periods, load balancing studies and bird kill comparisons with other aspects of the energy sector such as power pylons.

    Wind power works. It produces power with minimal pollution and pays for itself.

    You claim all sources not affiliated with the coal or natural gas industry are bogus. Since such sources have a nasty habit of being inconsistant with peer-reviewed studies and the balance sheets of wind power using utilities they appear to be bogus to the owner of this blog. Reputation ad nauseum follows.

    It isn’t a legitimate argument if you can’t admit to a mutually accepted basket of facts. It’s just noise. What exactly is the point? Misinformation? Destruction of resources in the form of people’s time?

    Like

  25. Alan Scott says:

    Ed Darrell,

    ” Alan, your selectivity is astonishing. Did you read all of the good doctor’s report? ”

    I will now pay you a slight compliment. I fully expected you to dismiss my source. You did not, and I thank you.

    I hope to more fully respond shortly, but for now.

    ” Read what ERCOT actually said; but for the power from wind, much greater disaster would have ensued.”

    Wind sucks up more financial resources than it is worth. We can argue about what Texas real problem is. There is not enough incentive to add capacity, which is a failure of state government policy. Federal regulations aggravate this whole situation and incentivise Texas not to interconnect with other grids. Wind is not the answer to the Texas peak capacity shortage. You need capacity that can be scaled up and down rapidly on command. Wind is simply not suited to that. Natural gas is, but during a cold emergency, you tend to have shortages.

    Pangolin,

    ” So we’re supposed to presume that in a market where every parts supplier to the auto industry had their options for sales reduced to Ford and Toyota they would manage to keep their doors open?”

    Lets see if I can make this understandable. The auto industry does so many billions of dollars in business. Whether it is the two Obama charity cases or Ford and Toyota. Either way the money and business for the workers and the parts industry is the same. You and Mr. Obama have just picked winners in another industry.

    ” That’s not what any economist was saying in 2009. Interesting. I believe the old Soviet Union had a more automobile manufacturers if Wikipedia is to be believed. ”

    You have your economists, I have mine. Yes the Soviet Union was a great Central Planner’s ideal. I am not surprised you cited it . Those were the good old days, eh ?

    ” Then we were somehow transported into the bizzarre right wing hatred of pensions. A hatred that somehow never keeps the proponents from trotting down and cashing their own personal pension checks every month. ”

    When did a left winger ever understand anything about the economics of pensions ? When, never!!!

    The UAW got pensions that the auto makers could not pay. Yes, Yes, Yes, it was a major factor in the American auto industry failing. I do not enjoy seeing anyone’s pension in jeopardy. The UAW had to of seen what was coming and did not care. Why should they, Uncle Obama bailed them out.

    It is called sustainability. You know like from your nature shows on the telly. Like in SS and Medicare sustainability.

    Like

  26. Ed Darrell says:

    More stupidity and arrogance: Willis Eschenbach actually thinks hydropower generators are simple machines that require very little maintenance:

    PS—On a totally separate issue, I suspect that the maintenance costs for wind power are underestimated in the report, that in fact they are higher than the EIA folks assume. For example, both wind and water are free, and the EIA claims that wind and hydro have the same operation and maintenance cost of about one cent per kWh.

    But with hydro (or almost any other conventional technology) you only need to maintain one really big generator on the ground.

    With wind, on the other hand, to get the same amount of power you need to maintain dozens and dozens of still plenty big separate generators, which are stuck way up at the top of really tall separate towers … and also have huge, hundred-foot (30 m) propeller blades whipping around in the sky. You can imagine the trek you’ll have when you forget to bring the size #2 Torx head screwdriver …

    Do you really think those two systems, both feeding the same amount of power into the grid, would cost the same to maintain? Check out the windfarms and count how many of the fans are not turning at any given time …

    Where does Watts find this troop of comedians?

    (Mark — are you claiming Eschenbach’s entire post is a parody? I don’t think I’m humor impaired — I’m laughing at the errors. Have you got any evidence that Eschenbach is not entirely serious?)

    Like

  27. Ed Darrell says:

    Or, while government anti-pollution regulations are the greatest threat to energy reliability, it still is no serious threat.

    Did you know that about 50% of American doctors graduated in the bottom half of their class?

    Like

  28. Pangolin says:

    David Roberts over at Grist answers the claim that regulations are a threat to power reliability here.

    A peek….

    Even most of the utilities know it. As the MJB&A report notes, “about half of the nation’s coal-fired generating capacity and 11 out of the top 15 largest coal fleet owners in the U.S.” have corporate statements on record saying that they are well-positioned to meet EPA requirements. Here’s a compilation of statements (PDF) from utility execs expressing confidence.

    It looks like somebody needs to make up their minds. They can either operate with the new proposed regulations or their stock prices are at risk. Where the stock prices are concerned they seem entirely confident of their ability to successfully navigate new regulation.

    Like

  29. Ed Darrell says:

    ” There is simply no way to run jet-fueled aircraft on commercial flights without massive government subsidies and preferential tax treatment. Let us not neglect that virtually all jet engine technology has been developed with government money; primarily for military contracts. ”

    End there, too. Yes, aircraft development has been heavily subsidized by government — for military aircraft. Of course, the opposite works, too. Military tankers for years were made by Boeing on the design of the 707, an aircraft developed solely for passenger travel, from airframe to engines.

    What other subsidies are there? Airlines pay for the FAA. Airlines pay for the runways. Airlines pay for the terminals.

    Once more we see, in spades, that the crabby, cynical, so-called conservative view of things is skewed beyond real comprehension by simple ignorance of the facts, or complete disregard of what is known.

    Who was it said, “Reality has a well-known, liberal bias?” She or he was right.

    Like

  30. Pangolin says:

    From Alan’s blog source listed below……

    Texas has pursued a policy of isolation for the ERCOT power grid so as to keep the state’s largest utilities subject primarily to state, rather than federal, regulation.

    Texas politicians have sought to avoid Federal regulation for two reasons. The first is that Federal anti-pollution regulations are almost always more stringent than state regulations. Congressmen are more expensive to bribe than legislatures. The second is Texas mythology of independence.

    I would suggest a third reason could be that interconnections aren’t very profitable for independent power producers within Texas as they reduce the need for high-cost, short-running peaker plants. In other words isolated markets are more easy to manipulate for maximum profits.

    Like

  31. Ed Darrell says:

    Alan, your selectivity is astonishing. Did you read all of the good doctor’s report?

    Dr. Michael Giberson at Texas Tech, a student of ERCOT and the Texas electricity grid, said:

    In brief, extreme cold weather pushed power demand to very high winter levels. At the same time, fifty of the state’s power plants were offline due to the effects of the cold, and several others were undergoing planned maintenance. The combination of very high demand and reduced supply left the ERCOT grid perilously short of reserves. Rolling consumer outages were employed to protect the system from failing completely.

    Some wondered whether wind power was at fault, but wind contributed about seven percent of ERCOT’s power during the emergency – about the same as this time last year.

    No power system is immune to hazards. But policy decisions that increase the likelihood of hazards or multiply the resulting damages ought to be given careful reconsideration. In this case, the choice by Texas policymakers to keep ERCOT isolated from surrounding power systems prevented power companies within ERCOT from accessing excess power capacity elsewhere in the state and in neighboring states. Other policy issues also are raised by the emergency, but few solutions are likely to be as cost-effective and technically simple to implement as linking ERCOT to its neighbors.

    He’s right — wind was not Superman flying in on Supersteed. But windpower did not fail, wind farms provided more than had been budgeted, and as a consequence, we in Texas squeaked through the cold weather crisis, exactly contrary to Anthony Watts’ predictions and the dreams of warming denialists and Tea Partiers everywhere. (I presume the Tea Partiers were fiddling while Texas froze.)

    Read what ERCOT actually said; but for the power from wind, much greater disaster would have ensued. Of course, we can say the same about those nuclear plants that were up and running, and about those coal-fired plants that did not get knocked out by the cold.

    Dr. Giberson did not provide any information to urge the abandoning of wind power. He’s bugged about the crazy “Texas must be independent” rule that keeps Texas from linking to the grids in other states — and rightly so. John Donne was right: No man is an island. Nor should any man strive to be.

    Like

  32. Pangolin says:

    So we’re supposed to presume that in a market where every parts supplier to the auto industry had their options for sales reduced to Ford and Toyota they would manage to keep their doors open? That’s not what any economist was saying in 2009. Interesting. I believe the old Soviet Union had a more automobile manufacturers if Wikipedia is to be believed.

    This is an argument for capitalism?

    Then we were somehow transported into the bizzarre right wing hatred of pensions. A hatred that somehow never keeps the proponents from trotting down and cashing their own personal pension checks every month.

    The aged did so much better before there were pensions. Oh no, that’s the opinion of conservative fantasists. Before modern pension structures most of the aged lived in miserable conditions.

    Like

  33. Alan Scott says:

    Being the ‘ troll ‘ that I am accused of being, it would seem to be my role to post inconvenient facts . The first ‘ fact ‘ is a report by the North American Electric Reliability Corporation. NERC recently said in a report ” Environmental Regulations are shown to be the number one risk to reliability over the next one to five years. ”

    In other words the Kommissars over at the Obama EPA who have a goal to shut down as many coal fired electric generating plants as they possibly can . When you take capacity off line and do not replace it, guess what, in times of stress you get blackouts, brownouts and higher electric bills.

    Of course the bureaucrats have released studies that dispute all of this. Facts are always generated at will by the government.

    Which brings me back to Texas. As I recall . mine host reported that during the February 2011 power shortage in Texas, when coal power let Texas down, good ole wind power ” pulled us through “. Not exactly. Now I realize this source will be attacked as biased, but I use it.

    http://www.masterresource.org/2011/02/texas-winter-power-outages-ercot/

    ” Wind generated power was used and useful, but couldn’t be dialed up to produce more during a time of need. Wind power was neither the cause of the problem, nor of any special value in reaching a solution. “

    Like

  34. Alan Scott says:

    Pangolin,

    ” Alan Scott_ You seem to be selectively blind about your criticism of green companies. Without government handouts the big three automakers ”

    You mean the big two. Government Motors and Chrysler. Ford would have survived . Toyota would have survived. Obama bailed out the UAW and their pension fund, period.

    ” and every major airline in the world would not exist at all ”

    You mean American companies? The American airline industry has always lost money, always. There is something very wrong with the whole structure , which the government props up.

    ” There is simply no way to run jet-fueled aircraft on commercial flights without massive government subsidies and preferential tax treatment. Let us not neglect that virtually all jet engine technology has been developed with government money; primarily for military contracts. ”

    Is that why your guy Obama always denounces the private jet industries, because they are not on the federal teat and can’t be controlled ????

    ” I would suggest that you are simply a troll. ”

    There was a discussion of this topic on another board. Why is it that anyone disagreeing with you left wing angels is either banned or called a troll ? Why do you guys suppress dissent ?

    You guys want to post in an echo chamber.

    Like

  35. Alan Scott says:

    Ed Darrell,

    ” Alan, dozens of oil companies have gone belly up in Texas in the past decade.� Would you care to count to see which industry produces the most bankruptcies? ”

    As you say facts are facts, but as I always say since I’ve come here , it is how you interpret and weigh those facts that truly makes the difference. When an oil company fails, the oil business just rolls on. Electric cars lost the battle against the combustion engine in the early 1900s. I have no doubt that electric cars will one day carve a niche out, but for now they are a leftwinger’s wet dream .

    Aptera had one hope, government welfare. When that failed so did the company. That is my problem with green. An oil company wins or loses in the market place with private money, as it should be. The government should not be picking winners and losers, as it now does . Especially a government as corrupt as our’s that rewards Obama donors with green grants .

    Like

  36. Pangolin says:

    Ah yes, the Anthony Watts festival of illogic, innumeracy and fallacy. If an actual fact is posted in the comments they delete it post-haste.

    In Anthony Watts land wind turbines never produce power. Solar panels are more toxic than an open coal fire and nuclear power could produce energy at $1/kwh if only they could get rid of those pesky labor and safety regulations.

    Alan Scott_ You seem to be selectively blind about your criticism of green companies. Without government handouts the big three automakers and every major airline in the world would not exist at all. We all know that the automobile industry and their associated supply chains would have collapsed in 2009 without a huge handout. They were bankrupt.

    There is simply no way to run jet-fueled aircraft on commercial flights without massive government subsidies and preferential tax treatment. Let us not neglect that virtually all jet engine technology has been developed with government money; primarily for military contracts.

    I would suggest that you are simply a troll.

    Like

  37. Ed Darrell says:

    Mark, I find absolutely no indication that the claim was made tongue-in-cheek. What evidence have you that it was?

    Like

  38. […] Apparently to be on the left, you need to check your sense of humor at the door. […]

    Like

  39. […] to be on the left, you need to check your sense of humor at the […]

    Like

  40. Ed Darrell says:

    Alan, dozens of oil companies have gone belly up in Texas in the past decade. Would you care to count to see which industry produces the most bankruptcies?

    If oil is in the lead, does that mean oil is not a viable business? Why not?

    Like

  41. Alan Scott says:

    Oh speaking of green energy, another ” green company ” just went belly up . When oh when will we realize that green is a fool’s dream ? With out government handouts green cannot compete.

    http://www.nctimes.com/blogsnew/business/carlsbad-out-of-money-aptera-motors-closing-down/article_467ee130-0908-558b-9c71-383dcf2010c0.html

    I will admit it was a cool looking car.

    Like

  42. Ellie says:

    Renew the sun?? And….this isn’t a Poe?

    Like

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