New junk science movie: “Not evil, just wrong”

I warned you about it earlierCrank science sites across the internet feature news of another cheap hit on Rachel Carson and science in movie form.

“Not Evil, Just Wrong” is slated for release on October 18. This is the film that tried to intrude on the Rachel Carson film earlier this year, but managed to to get booked only at an elementary school in Seattle, Washington — Rachel Carson Elementary, a green school where the kids showed more sense than the film makers by voting to name the school after the famous scientist-author.

The film is both evil and wrong.

Errors just in the trailer:

  1. Claims that Al Gore said sea levels will rise catastrophically, “in the very near future.”  Not in his movie, not in his writings or speeches.  Not true.  That’s a simple misstatement of what Gore said, and Gore had the science right.
  2. ” . . . [I]t wouldn’t be a bad thing for this Earth to warm up.  In fact, ice is the enemy of life.”  “Bad” in this case is a value judgment — global warming isn’t bad if you’re a weed, a zebra mussel, one of the malaria parasites, a pine bark beetle, any other tropical disease, or a sadist.  But significant warming as climatologists, physicists and others project, would be disastrous to agriculture, major cities in many parts of the world, sea coasts, and most people who don’t live in the Taklamakan or Sahara, and much of the life in the ocean.  Annual weather cycles within long-established ranges, is required for life much as we know it.  “No ice” is also an enemy of life.
  3. “They want to raise our taxes.”  No, that’s pure, uncomposted bovine excrement.
  4. “They want to close our factories.”  That’s more effluent from the anus of male bovines.
  5. The trailer notes the usual claim made by Gore opponents that industry cannot exist if it is clean, that industry requires that we poison the planet.  Were that true, we’d have a need to halt industry now, lest we become like the yeast in the beer vat, or the champagne bottle, manufacturing alcohol until the alcohol kills the yeast.  Our experience with Rivers and Harbors Act of 1899, the Clean Air Acts and the Clean Water Act is that cleaning the environment produces economic growth, not the other way around.  A city choked in pollution dies.  Los Angeles didn’t suffer when the air got cleaner.  Pittsburgh’s clean air became a way to attract new industries to the city, before the steel industry there collapsed.  Cleaning Lake Erie didn’t hurt industry.  The claim made by the film is fatuous, alarmist, and morally corrupt.

    When the human health, human welfare, and environmental effects which could be expressed in dollar terms were added up for the entire 20-year period, the total benefits of Clean Air Act programs were estimated to range from about $6 trillion to about $50 trillion, with a mean estimate of about $22 trillion. These estimated benefits represent the estimated value Americans place on avoiding the dire air quality conditions and dramatic increases in illness and premature death which would have prevailed without the 1970 and 1977 Clean Air Act and its associated state and local programs. By comparison, the actual costs of achieving the pollution reductions observed over the 20 year period were $523 billion, a small fraction of the estimated monetary benefits.

  6. “Some of the environmental activists have not come to accept that the human is also part of the environment.”  Fatuous claim.  Environmentalists note that humans uniquely possess the ability to change climate on a global scale, intentionally, for the good or bad; environmentalists choose to advocate for actions that reduce diseases like malaria, cholera and asthma.  We don’t have to sacrifice a million people a year to malaria, in order to be industrial and productive.  We don’t have to kill 700,000 kids with malaria every year just to keep cars.
  7. “They want to go back to the Dark Ages and the Black Plague.”  No, that would be the film makers.  Environmentalists advocate reducing filth and ignorance both.  Ignorance and lack of ability to read, coupled with religious fanaticism, caused the strife known as “the Dark Ages.”  It’s not environmentalists who advocate an end to cheap public schools.
  8. The trailer shows a kid playing in the surf on a beach.  Of course, without the Clean Water Act and other attempts to keep the oceans clean, such play would be impossible.  That we can play again on American beaches is a tribute to the environmental movement, and reason enough to grant credence to claims of smart people like Al Gore and the scientists whose work he promotes.
  9. “I cannot believe that Al Gore has great regard for people, real people.”  So, this is a film promoting the views of crabby, misanthropic anal orifices who don’t know Al Gore at all?  Shame on them.  And, why should anyone want to see such a film?  If I want to see senseless acts of stupidity, I can rent a film by Quentin Tarantino and get some art with the stupidity.  [Update, November 23, 2009: This may be one of the most egregiously false charges of the film.  Gore, you recall, is the guy who put his political career and presidential ambitions on hold indefinitely when his son was seriously injured in an auto-pedestrian accident; Gore was willing to sacrifice all his political capital in order to get his son healed.  My first dealings directly with Gore came on the Organ Transplant bill.  Gore didn't need a transplant, didn't have need for one in his family, and had absolutely nothing to gain from advocacy for the life-saving procedure.  It was opposed by the chairman of his committee, by a majority of members of his own party in both Houses of Congress, by many in the medical establishment, by many in the pharmaceutical industry, and by President Reagan, who didn't drop his threat to veto the bill until he signed it, as I recall.   Gore is a man of deep, human-centered principles.  Saying "I can't believe Al Gore has great regard for real people" only demonstrates the vast ignorance and perhaps crippling animus of the speaker.]

That’s a whopper about every 15 seconds in the trailer — the film itself may make heads spin if it comes close to that pace of error.

Where have we seen this before?  Producers of the film claim as “contributors” some of the people they try to lampoon — people like Ed Begley, Jr., and NASA’s James E. Hansen, people who don’t agree in any way with the hysterical claims of the film, and people who, I wager, would be surprised to be listed as “contributors.”

It’s easy to suppose these producers used the same ambush-the-scientist technique used earlier by the producers of the anti-science, anti-Darwin film “Expelled!

Here, see the hysteria, error and alarmism for yourself:

Ann McElhinney is one of the film’s producers.  Her past work includes other films against protecting environment and films for mining companies.  She appears to be affiliated with junk science purveyors at the Competitive Enterprise Institute, an astro-turf organization in Washington, D.C., for whom she flacked earlier this year (video from Desmogblog):

Remember, too, that this film is already known to have gross inaccuracies about Rachel Carson and DDT, stuff that high school kids could get right easily.

Anyone have details on McElhinney and her colleague, Phelim McAlee?

More:

Related posts, at Millard Fillmore’s Bathtub:

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410 Responses to “New junk science movie: “Not evil, just wrong””

  1. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “I didn’t think you’d read it, or if you had read it, that you have any possible response based on the facts. I see I was right.”

    Ed you shouldn’t try thinking with that rectal cranial inversion problem you have – you could hurt itself. Ed, the facts are that you are full of BS, you are perpetrating a fraud, and you haven’t presented one fact at any time from the beginning of this charade you started. Now pull your pants up!

  2. 393992 Says:

    Well, I don’t see the british courts derailing this movie for use in schools. (I saw it in school) They must have been wrong about Al Gore’s film then. Right? Because that’s the “truth”, right? Silly justice.

  3. Ed Darrell Says:

    Hexmate said:

    Come on Ed you know all that crap you put up there is nothing more than an erroneous smoke screen to try and derail the facts.

    I didn’t think you’d read it, or if you had read it, that you have any possible response based on the facts.

    I see I was right.

  4. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “See above. I detail nine in the trailer.”

    Come on Ed you know all that crap you put up there is nothing more than an erroneous smoke screen to try and derail the facts. Everyone already knows Gore is a liar – just like you! Birds of feather Ed! Pull those feathers out of your butt Ed and pull up your pants.

  5. Hexmate Says:

    Moderation said: “Ed, by now you should realize that “what you find” or your analysis of things doesnt hold a lot of weight with me. So when you say that you “cant find any evidence” I am more likely to belive that you didnt look hard enough.”

    Moderation you should know by now that Ed can’t find his pants so Ed looking for evidence is like Stevie Wonder taking a driving test. Ed wouldn’t know evidence if he ran into it.

  6. Ed Darrell Says:

    There aren’t any errors in this film,

    See above. I detail nine in the trailer. Did they edit those out? No?

    You want to make a case they are not errors? Here’s the forum.

  7. Erin Says:

    There aren’t any errors in this film, unlike Gore’s, which have nine significant errors, and now has to have a permission slip signed for children to view it Democrats are angry because this exploits everything that they stand for and shows the American and people of the world that they are exaggerating the truth in their favor and or replacing them with lies and logical fallacies. I’m sorry to tell you all the truth, but Al Gore is the biggest liar on the face of the planet, and the republican party and the filmmakers of “Not Evil,Just Wrong” are right to exploit this. Every news media in the country, with the exception of Fox and talk radio are all biased in the democrats favor. Sorry guys, but the truth sucks.
    ;)

  8. James Says:

    Yeah, Errors are only errors in the mind of “liberals” if they go against what they have been taught and what they believe.

    Bye the way folks, Liberal, USED to mean open minded to new ideas. Looks like your not so liberal after all.

  9. Richard Says:

    You cannot cry foul without stating your “true facts”. Your name calling and quotes of “lies lies lies” and “wrong wrong wrong” do not prove your point. ERGO – you have not proved your point – you have only ranted. Science is NOT on your side – emotion is what YOUR side is about. Grow up. Your side is the wrong side.

  10. Hexmate Says:

    “I have attempted to stick to evidence and avoid these immature comments, but sadly that is not the case for Ed and Hex.”

    Ah… I like this Moderation, but I find that Ed begets what he begot. He deserves no respect because he gives none. Never has, never will. He belittles and brow beats anyone who presents the opposite point of view, he dismisses any data presented and tries to demean that information in order to debunk it by claiming it is obtained without authority or is from some crackpot. Unfortunately Ed is the crackpot and can present nothing that refutes the fact that global warming is nothing more than a farce being perpetrated by himself, and the likes of Al Gore for pure profit. His behavior is consistent with his immaturity and thus he draws the appropriate responses and will continue to draw those responses. It is only proper to give Ed and this website that level of respect and regard, since that is what he, and it have earned. You see there are things in life that are serious like Vietnam, but this is not serious, and it does not deserve to be regarded as serious – it is a fraud and a scam. However I like Ed, so I think I’ll hang around to keep him company. Besides he needs someone to tell him when his pants are hanging around his ankles which seems to happen quite frequently.

  11. Moderation Says:

    Ed, by now you should realize that “what you find” or your analysis of things doesnt hold a lot of weight with me. So when you say that you “cant find any evidence” I am more likely to belive that you didnt look hard enough. Those emails are hundreds or thousands of pages long and I seriously doubt that you have conducted a proper sampling of them. Yet you somehow manage to draw definite conclusions about what they dont contain. This is what you would call a “smoking gun” of a biased analysis.

    Ive looked through the emails for maybe half an hour and already found this one thread that fails the standards of open and honest science.

    http://www.anelegantchaos.org/emails.php?eid=490&filename=1107454306.txt

    It contains quotes such as these,

    “We also have a data protection act, which I will hide behind. Tom Wigley has sent me a worried
    email when he heard about it – thought people could ask him for his model code. He has retired officially from UEA so he can hide behind that.”

    and

    “If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the UK, I think I’ll delete the file rather than send to anyone.”

    This one,

    http://www.anelegantchaos.org/emails.php?eid=498&filename=1109021312.txt

    “PS I’m getting hassled by a couple of people to release the CRU station temperature data.
    Don’t any of you three tell anybody that the UK has a Freedom of Information Act !”

    Here’s an explanation of how data was manipulated,

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/22/cru-emails-may-be-open-to-interpretation-but-commented-code-by-the-programmer-tells-the-real-story/

    Comments in the computer code actually admit that data was “artificially adjusted to look closer to the real temperatures.”

    Here’s an article from the same site that explains how the Hockey Stick curve was falsified by Mann (Mann is not from CRU)).

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/10/17/how-to-trick-yourself-into-unintentional-cherry-picking-to-make-hockey-sticks/

    I remember reading one of the emails and the guys from CRU were critisizing Mann for producing the bogus curve. It shouldnt be a shock since CRU attempts to do good work and seem genuinely concerned about their professional standards. But thats not to say that they dont make mistakes and dont have their own biases.

    I dont think we should give them a free pass just because they have good intentions or just because they are generally good scientists. We should also wait until the emails have been thoroughly investigated before we make definite conclusions. Some will claim that this “proves a global conspiracy” and others will claim that it “reinforces the credibilty of Gore.” I imagine that the truth is somewhere in between.

  12. Ed Darrell Says:

    Did Ed just post a link to his own website? Is he citing his own opinion to support his opinion? That is a rather circular form of reasoning.

    I link to accurate information anywhere. I don’t like to repeat myself too often. If I’ve already covered the material somewhere else, a link is a courtesy to you.

    You’re welcome.

    I assume that you found it accurate and convincing. You offer no substantial or constructive criticism, nor any rebuttal of any kind.

  13. Ed Darrell Says:

    This article provides a more balanced analysis of the emails than you will find from Ed,

    http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/23/cru-emails-reveal-a-worrying-pattern-of-bad-behaviour/

    and concludes that,

    “statements suggesting “the science is settled” can no longer be sustained”

    I read that article before I looked at the posts. I think his conclusion is hasty and wrong.

    What comes through a serious reading is that there are long arguments about data, which data sets to use, in order to provide the most accurate picture, the best detail, and the best models of what will happen in the future.

    The comment about the death of John Daly was unfortunate. Understandable, I think. It offers nothing other than bad manners, however — there is no manipulation of data (some would accuse Daly of having done that, which would make the macabre comment, if accurate about Daly’s death, more than understandable). There is nothing illegal. There is nothing scientific about it, nor unscientific about it. You see emotional responses of people who take seriously the accuracy of data, and who feel seriously wounded by the most-often-unfounded gripes from denialists.

    You defend Monckton’s general name for scientists as “bed-wetters?” At least the scientists keep their caustic comments private, and based on history. They don’t make a habit of making public lectures merely to malign denialists. They don’t tout them for fundraising on hack political sites.

    and

    “the emails do provide evidence of attempts to subvert the peer-review process, refusal to make data available to journals, attempts to manipulate the editorial stance of journals, attempts to avoid releasing data following FOI requests, tax evasion, rejoicing at the deaths of opponents, manipulation of results, apparent misappropriation of grant money, and threats to physically assault rivals.”

    I found no instance of any attempt to subvert a peer-review process. Certainly there is nothing like the behind-the-scenes, no-review, secret publication of of the intelligent design paper in the obscure biology journal a few years back (an act that many of the denialists abjectly approve).

    I haven’t found any refusals to release data to journals, but they may be there. Most of the climate warming data are in the public domain. Perhaps Monckton should reserve his term “bedwettters” for those on his denialist side who refuse to go into the field to make their own observations, can’t make any case out of the mountains of publicly-available data, and then whine that other scientists won’t share the products of the scientists’ own hard work.

    If you can make a case that any of these instances are consequential, please do so. And do it with reference to the e-mails, and please read the threads. Denialists already claim that that making charts with real data is an unethical trick — I don’t trust denialist judgment on any of the processes. Stick to the data.

    Where is there manipulation of data? Please be specific, and explain what the data are and where the real data are, and what the difference is.

    Tax evasion? I doubt it. Misappropriation of grants? Perhaps, but I doubt it. The rules are hard, and they are rules that denialists rarely play by — I don’t trust their claimed knowledge of grant rules, either.

    But that’s a good point. If any of the grant money is U.S. federal grant, and if there are data frauds, then there is a federal crime. Many of the climate scientists who have made the case for warming play by those much-higher-than-usual ethical standards every day, and stay within all ethical bounds. I think many of the bright lights of the denialist crowd couldn’t survive a grant application.

    Threats to physically assault denialists? In Texas, much of those would be justified. Denialists regularly pop out with claims that would be felonies under U.S. federal grant rules, and claims that would excuse assault and battery in tort.

    How many denialists actually have body guards? They don’t take their own stuff seriously, let alone the obviously fantasy threats of scientists working on the other side.

    As a summary, I rather agree with this one at RealClimate:

    More interesting is what is not contained in the emails. There is no evidence of any worldwide conspiracy, no mention of George Soros nefariously funding climate research, no grand plan to ‘get rid of the MWP’, no admission that global warming is a hoax, no evidence of the falsifying of data, and no ‘marching orders’ from our socialist/communist/vegetarian overlords. The truly paranoid will put this down to the hackers also being in on the plot though.

  14. Ed Darrell Says:

    Dont the emails show that in some fashion the data was skewed. This quote for instance,

    “I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline.”

    suggests that they are using “tricks” to “hide the decline”. If Ed can give the context to this quote that shows how it is not data manipulation, then he would be showing better form.

    As I’ve noted often, it helps to be familiar with science. Scientists and mathematicians I’ve worked with often refer to a statistical operation on data as a “trick.” In this particular case, the “trick” is adding in a line on the graph that shows the actual, measured data, compared to what the models predicted.

    Only in the Bizarro world is using real data considered an unethical maneuver.

    Of course, by this “trick” it is demonstrated for all to see that the climate models used in this case predicted the actual measurements very closely. I can understand why climate denialists regard this as foul — they’ve never recognized the strong data and accuracy biases of reality.

    Reality has a profound and well-known liberal bias, too.

  15. Moderation Says:

    This article provides a more balanced analysis of the emails than you will find from Ed,

    http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/23/cru-emails-reveal-a-worrying-pattern-of-bad-behaviour/

    and concludes that,

    “statements suggesting “the science is settled” can no longer be sustained”

    and

    “the emails do provide evidence of attempts to subvert the peer-review process, refusal to make data available to journals, attempts to manipulate the editorial stance of journals, attempts to avoid releasing data following FOI requests, tax evasion, rejoicing at the deaths of opponents, manipulation of results, apparent misappropriation of grant money, and threats to physically assault rivals.”

  16. Ed Darrell Says:

    Moderation, come on over to the thread on the e-mails.

    What the emails CLEARLY show is that the scientific conclusions made by these people were sometimes motivated and based on opinion and not on scientific reasoning. To follow the scientific method you must present all of the data even if it contradicts your conclusion or cannot be explained.

    I haven’t found a single post that indicates anything other than a motivation to get the science right and present real data to policy makers to take proper action. Can you show me a post where the motivation was opinion, and not science?

    In the thread I highlight and post a dozen links to there, the opinions come from your side. The scientists discuss how to respond, and ultimately determine the way to respond is by carefully setting out known sets of data in other scientific papers, to be criticized before publication, to establish a science-based foundation that refutes the critics, without holding a press conference, without any expression of opinion, but with the mere presentation of the actual data.

    I noted several links to follow much of that thread in context.

    Your turn.

  17. Moderation Says:

    Did Ed just post a link to his own website? Is he citing his own opinion to support his opinion? That is a rather circular form of reasoning.

    What the emails CLEARLY show is that the scientific conclusions made by these people were sometimes motivated and based on opinion and not on scientific reasoning. To follow the scientific method you must present all of the data even if it contradicts your conclusion or cannot be explained.

    Once again Ed returns to personally insulting me when I dont belive everything that he preaches.

    (“climate hecklers like Moderation and Hexmate? They are deficient in psychology and social relations, too, it appears.)

    I have attempted to stick to evidence and avoid these immature comments, but sadly that is not the case for Ed and Hex.

    When Ed wrote,

    “The e-mails dispel all climate “skeptics” claims that there is a conspiracy among scientists to skew records or data in any fashion.”

    he lost a lot of credibilty with me. Dont the emails show that in some fashion the data was skewed. This quote for instance,

    “I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline.”

    suggests that they are using “tricks” to “hide the decline”. If Ed can give the context to this quote that shows how it is not data manipulation, then he would be showing better form.

    or

    “The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t. The CERES data published in the August BAMS 09 supplement on 2008 shows there should be even more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our observing system is inadequate.”

    Shows that the data suggest that warming has significantly slowed but that their preconceptions led them to discredit the data. They also admit that the system is “inadequate.

    or

    “Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?”

    Suggest that they are attempting to hide things. Some might call it a conspiracy.

    All of these things directly contradict things that Ed claims to be truth. He is welcome to post specific counterpoints to these things. Maybe provide specific context to the quotes that show them in a different light. I would suggest that he avoids making conclusion BEFORE he looks at the evidence.

  18. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Smoking guns in the CRU stolen e-mails”

    Ed you are grasping at loose straws! You can’t even see Ed! Hang on – the EMS unit should be there any minute now. Save your strength Ed – don’t try to talk just wait until the medics get there. Try to think of pleasant thoughts like Al Gore is whispering in your ear that global warming is under control now.

  19. Ed Darrell Says:

    Smoking guns in the CRU stolen e-mails

  20. Matthew Says:

    I understand the position of these idiots; everyone knows that the earth has gone through many extreme climate changes throughout the very existence of it. Why now would we not be going on to catastrophic climatic change!? Please panic and run to the streets, better yet kill yourself and save the carbon footprint.

  21. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Your being privy to e-mails between scientists in which they discuss the disturbing discoveries they have made about Earth’s climate warming, does not in any way rebut or cast doubt upon the findings.”

    Ed don’t move! You might break your head off in there. Just wait the for the EMS unit to show up. They are on their way!

  22. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “As I noted, you should point us to the smoking gun that reveals warming is a hoax.

    Can’t do it, though, can you.

    That’s the point”

    Ed don’t try to talk right now – save your strength!

  23. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Here’s the background you need to understand “Climategate”:”

    Hang on Ed the EMS unit is on the way! You can thank me later for saving your life!

  24. Ed Darrell Says:

    The emails are true Ed.

    Some, perhaps many, of the e-mails are true, but cast no doubt of any sort upon the science that verifies warming occurs, and that humans contribute greatly to it.

    As I noted, you should point us to the smoking gun that reveals warming is a hoax.

    Can’t do it, though, can you.

    That’s the point.

    Your being privy to e-mails between scientists in which they discuss the disturbing discoveries they have made about Earth’s climate warming, does not in any way rebut or cast doubt upon the findings.

  25. Ed Darrell Says:

    Here’s the background you need to understand “Climategate”:
    http://carbonfixated.com/newtongate-the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-of-renaissance-and-enlightenment-thinking/

  26. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Machiavelli wrote of George Soros, according to Hexmate, “Surely the most adept of all the princes in all of history. I wish I could survive to meet the man.””

    Ed you are getting delusional – it must be that severe case of rectal cranial inversion you have. Hang on I’m calling 911. EMS is on the way – they’ll get you to the hospital so the doctors can perform surgery before you lose conciseness.

  27. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Hexmate, Moderation, you should read all of those e-mails carefully. When you find the smoking guns that indicate they are fixing temperature readings, let us know.”

    The emails are true Ed. The jig is up! Now pull up your pants. Oh, and by the way Ed you really need to change your underwear too. The latest discovery about this global warming farce seems to have soiled your bvd’s. Eeeegh… I can’t look any longer and the smell is repulsive!

  28. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Obstreperous and obnoxious hecklers are disliked universally. This is a surprise to climate hecklers like Moderation and Hexmate? They are deficient in psychology and social relations, too, it appears.”

    Ed since you say we are hostile and detestable it would only be appropriate to say it takes one to know one now doesn’t it Eddie? Ed you have been a social outcast and psychologically deranged for years as evidenced by your commentary. You need to buy some friends Ed. Gonna cost you a lot of money though. Especially with you showing off your butt like that all the time.

  29. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “1. “ClimateGate” is a bizarre claim that something might be wrong with science over the last 50 years because in the past five years climate scientists have gotten testy. Hex and others show their complete misunderstanding of all the rules of logic.”

    Ed this is BS and you know it.

  30. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “I Googled climategate, and what I found is that Hex’s butt is hanging out just as before. I’m convinced he doesn’t pull his pants up because he can’t find where to pull them up to, with both hands.”

    Oh Eddie, you are looking in the mirror again and you tried to make a funny out of it. Better luck next time Ed. I know it is difficult for you to accept the fact that global warming is nothing more than something Al Gore invented, but that is a fact so deal with it Ed; looks like he has plenty of accomplices too. In the mean time please pull your pants up we are all getting nauseous looking at your butt. No offense Ed but you really need to start working those gluts!

  31. R Reed Says:

    Global warming nuts are hysterical because people are beginning to understand you are hysterical nuts. EOS.

  32. Ed Darrell Says:

    This post at Scholars and Rogues rather puts things in perspective, I think:
    http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/11/20/climategate-not-likely/

  33. Ed Darrell Says:

    I Googled climategate, and what I found is that Hex’s butt is hanging out just as before. I’m convinced he doesn’t pull his pants up because he can’t find where to pull them up to, with both hands.

    1. “ClimateGate” is a bizarre claim that something might be wrong with science over the last 50 years because in the past five years climate scientists have gotten testy. Hex and others show their complete misunderstanding of all the rules of logic.

    In order to rebut the fact that the planet has warmed considerably, there must be evidence that it hasn’t warmed. That can’t happen.

    In order to rebut the well-working theory that climate will continue to warm, one must have some scientific evidence that the climate won’t continue to warm. So far the best evidence is a plateauing of warming since one of the hottest years ever recorded, that plateauing being completely consistent with annual fluctuations in the 200-year trend to fast-track warming. While the cause of the plateauing is not well understood, the fact of the plateauing offers no evidence that warming has stopped, nor that human releases of greenhouse gases are not the cause.

    2. The e-mails dispel all climate “skeptics” claims that there is a conspiracy among scientists to skew records or data in any fashion. They do reveal a great degree of patent anger at people who use insult and invective at scientists with no data to back a science case.

    Obstreperous and obnoxious hecklers are disliked universally. This is a surprise to climate hecklers like Moderation and Hexmate? They are deficient in psychology and social relations, too, it appears.

    3. In order to believe climate change and warming are hoaxes, one must believe that a few scientists were rich enough to afford not doing real work, but instead devoted 20 or 30 years to concerted political action that is still hidden from even the most energetic of investigative journalists, that they were able to get policy makers whose careers depend on saving money rather than finding silly places to spend it change their stripes and go along with unsupported scientific claims that are, at best, bad news. Plus, one must believe that these evil scientists were able to recruit the US Department of Agriculture and the Arbor Day Foundation to convince every plant in North America to change its breeding and migrating habits while a false plant-zone map was created (in 1935!) and updated, until it shows plants growing a hundred miles north of their previous zones. This is nothing short of miraculous, and means these scientists are, in fact the Intelligent Designer (God, to those not in on the ID hoax).

    Audubon carried a short note recently that about more than 50 species of birds in North America have moved. George Soros, whose name and money are mysteriously and miraculously absent from the misnamed “Climate Gate” stuff, reveals himself as a political genius without parallel in history, having recruited song birds to do his political work for him.

    Machiavelli wrote of George Soros, according to Hexmate, “Surely the most adept of all the princes in all of history. I wish I could survive to meet the man.”

    Hexmate, Moderation, you should read all of those e-mails carefully. When you find the smoking guns that indicate they are fixing temperature readings, let us know.

    In the meantime, spend a little time looking at the 7 Warning Signs of Bogus Science. While you’re at it, check out the 7 Warning Signs of Bogus History, too.

  34. Hexmate Says:

    Eddie! Oh oh Ed – you have been caught with your pants down again!

  35. Illumination Says:

    Hey Ed!!

    The gig is up, bud. You and your co2 cronies are done. Google Climategate. We now have the proof that the IPCC and all its backers have been full of s*** since day one.

    Go check it out. its their emails. Their words. Their lies.

    Save your intellect Ed, before its to late.

  36. Moderation Says:

    Here is another interesting link. The author gets in the way of the story which by itself is very interesting.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100017393/climategate-the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-of-anthropogenic-global-warming/

    Apparently some Russian hackers released emails and documents from the Hadley CRU in Britain that suggest (prove?) that high profile AGW advocates have engaged in,

    “Conspiracy, collusion in exaggerating warming data, possibly illegal destruction of embarrassing information, organised resistance to disclosure, manipulation of data, private admissions of flaws in their public claims and much more.”

    This is a government funded agency whose “HadCrut record is one of the four official sources of global temperature data used by the IPCC.” They certaitnly are a powerful and influential group.

    There is an interesting comment by ‘coldclimate’ on Nov 20th at 3:21pm. They mention the journal Climate Research. Ed you must be aware of this journal???

    The information appears to be legitimate, but we should know more as things develop. It certaintly pokes a giant hole in the “scientific consensus” that Ed loves to preach.

  37. Moderation Says:

    Actaully they do claim that on average warming has stopped or paused.

    They also say that the effect depends on location and that the artic continues to warm while other places are cooling. And they agree that warming will continue in the future but are uncertain when or at what rate.

    I preferred to post the link and let others read it and not present a biased analysis of it.

    When you say “no one argues that action should be delayed” you make a very vague statement.

    Delayed by 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 second?

    What action? reducing CO2 emissions by how much? by what polcies? should we base action on climate models? what technologies should be funded the most? should we focus on incentives or penalties or both? should we shut down coal plants today or tomorrow or in 20 years? should we build nuclear storage facilities? should we not eat red meat? should we outlaw gasoline powered cars?

    Should we act without cooperation from other countries? should we sign every international agrement? How many billions should the US pay the rest of the world? should we make promises or binding resolutions? what should the penalties be for noncompliance?

  38. Ed Darrell Says:

    Moderation, did you find it interesting that none of the scientists claimed that warming has stopped, nor did any claim that it won’t continue? In Europe, the leading scientists who argue the stall in temperature rise is due to solar activity (or inactivity), say warming will begin again soon; those who argue the current plateauing is caused by cooling waters from the Pacific say warming will continue it’s upward climb less soon. No one argues action should be delayed.

    Interesting article.

  39. Moderation Says:

    Two interesting articles can be found through this link:

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,662092,00.html

    The articles are titled:

    Part 1: Climatologists Baffled by Global Warming Time-Out
    Part 2: The Difficulties of Predicting the Climate

    That is all.

  40. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “From the site run by weatherman John Coleman. I suppose that if I were embarrassed to list the source, I wouldn’t quote him at all — but if you’re not embarrassed to make the claims, just cut and paste the URL.”

    Ed you have never been embarrassed to lie so when you are confronted with the truth I guess you get a little sheepish and want to discredit that information as best you can. You are an embarrassment Ed, but we understand since one must consider the source is you.

  41. Hexmate Says:

    Gore’s been simply shameless with his lies. Remember how he keeps telling us, that the consensus is in, and that the 2,500 scientists at the IPCC have proved it? Well the fact is that the IPCC’s climate estimates were based on only 4 scientific papers, not on the consensus of 2,500 scientists. I don’t think any rational person can look at the two graphs above, and see the IPCC’s reports as anything other than what they are, a pack of lies.

  42. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “If you wish to leave a URL and haven’t mastered the code for embedding, just cut and past the URL here.”

    Oh Ed why make people scurry around when they can just read it right here on your website.

  43. Ed Darrell Says:

    In his recent movie, former Vice President Al Gore, said: “If you look at the ten hottest years ever measured, they all occurred in the last fourteen years, and the hottest of all was 2005.”

    From the site run by weatherman John Coleman. I suppose that if I were embarrassed to list the source, I wouldn’t quote him at all — but if you’re not embarrassed to make the claims, just cut and paste the URL.

    Meanwhile, scientists involved in researching global warming had a few things to say to Coleman’s more scientific comrades. The American Physical Society rejected a plea by a few dissidents to change the Society’s statement on warming and fighting it.

    Read serious discussion here at Rabett Run:
    http://rabett.blogspot.com/2009/11/john-mashey-and-arthur-smith-were-right.html

  44. Ed Darrell Says:

    Dear Readers,

    If you wish to leave a URL and haven’t mastered the code for embedding, just cut and past the URL here.

    (Are you paying attention, Hexmate?)

  45. Hexmate Says:

    In his recent movie, former Vice President Al Gore, said: “If you look at the ten hottest years ever measured, they all occurred in the last fourteen years, and the hottest of all was 2005.”

    The ten hottest years ever measured happened thousands of years ago and 2005 was not one of them. Gore must be using only temperature readings from the 125 year thermometer set, a very short time to look at when one is trying to understand Global Warming, but this period of time suits the environmentalists because it is a time in which temperatures happened to be wandering up. Alarmists refuse to look at the big picture because it shows what they refuse to believe. For the US, the recently revised NASA GISS Annual Mean temperatures show 6 of the 10 warmest years were from the 1920s to the 1950s and only 4 since 1990.

    The big picture is that for the last eleven thousand years, Global Temperatures have been going sideways while wandering up and down between 54 and 60 degrees Fahrenheit. In this eleven thousand years there have been five up-spikes hotter than the year 2005. The current rise in temperature is merely a medium size upward movement; of more importance, is the current high spike in CO2 levels, which is the real Hockey Stick of Global Warming.

    Renowned climatologist Roger Pielke, Sr. has used IPCC’s estimates of climate forcing to calculate the contribution of CO2 to recent climate change. Pielke makes very conservative (worst-case) assumptions in considering the impacts of greenhouse gases, black carbon, tropospheric ozone, and solar radiation. This analysis ignores land use changes, which have been demonstrated to affect climate in a significant way, and cosmic rays, which affect cloud cover and thus can lead to significant climate changes.

    Pielke’s estimate is that CO2 is responsible for 28% (at most) of the human-caused changes. If natural variations do occur (and it’s very hard to argue that they do not) then this value decreases. But even if one assumes that the entire 0.6 deg C increase since 1900 is due to human effects, Pielke’s estimate would suggest a CO2 contribution of only 0.17 deg C.

    Modern temperatures remain lower than other periods within the Holocene (since the last Ice Age). Geologists and paleoclimatologists believe that the warmest conditions in the Holocene occurred several thousand years before Christ, and that several such episodes occurred. The most recent warm period occurred in medieval times 800-1200 years ago. Richard A. Muller and Gordon J. MacDonald, “Chapter 1: Brief Introduction to the History of Climate” Ice Ages and Astronomical Causes 2000)

    Climate has been stable for a long time but now is getting increasingly extreme.

    Climate swings are nothing new. Between 800 and 1300 AD, much of the world was several degrees warmer than today. People grew wine grapes in England, figs in Germany, assorted crops in Greenland. Then came the Little Ice Age, and temperatures considerably colder than today persisted until the climate warmed again around 1900. The likely cause? Changes in the sun’s energy output, or perhaps the Earth’s orbit, say Harvard-Smithsonian scientists Sallie Baliunas and Willie Soon.

  46. Hexmate Says:

    In a Time/CNN story by Michael Grunwald “Steven Chu, A Political Scientist” on Chu’s mission to China attempting to convince them to cooperate on emissions reductions in the December Copenhagen UN conference to discuss the next step after Kyoto (the Chinese are laughing all the way to the bank because they know our pain would be their gain).
    Grunwald noted “When I asked Chu about the earth-is-cooling argument, he rolled his eyes and whipped out a chart showing that the 10 hottest years on record have all been in the past 12 years and that 1998 was the hottest. He mocked the skeptics who focus on that post-1998 blip while ignoring a century-long trend of rising temperatures: “See? It’s gone down! The earth must be cooling!” But then he got serious, almost plaintive: “You know, it’s totally irresponsible. You’re not supposed to make up the facts.””
    I agree with the very last sentence. NOAA, NASA GISS and Hadley though are guilty of exactly that. They have created or enhanced man-made global warming by careless and possibly fraudulent methods. They started by dropping 80% of the world’s stations from their calculations, most rural, by not ensuring the instruments are not improperly sited (90% of the approximately 1000 surveyed and photographed by Anthony Watts volunteers do not meet the government’s own published standards), by not adjusting properly for the urbanization warming that has taken place as the world’s population rose for 1.6 to 6.7 billion people since 1900 (in the case of the US data, actually removing a very good urban adjustment), by employing and using instruments not really meant for precision temperature measurements or with warm biases, and most recently by eliminating ocean data sources like satellite or not using promising new sources like the Argo buoys because they are showing a cold ‘bias’ or cooling when the goal is to show warming in agreement with the models and their forecasts.
    With the data they perform then a homogenization adjustment that blends the good with the bad (a little like the toxic assets in the mortgage crises). Though this may improve some of the bad data, it degrades the good data. This is a little like mixing pure spring water with sludge, the sludge is a little less disgusting, but the result is not potable.
    Even the prior CCSP found that most of the warming is with the minimum temperatures in higher latitude cities and in winter, all classic characteristics of the urban heat island.
    Dozens of peer review papers have been published and new ones appear monthly showing that the local factors like urbanization are responsible for an exaggeration of the warming longer term by 20 to 50% or even more.

  47. Hexmate Says:

    12 Facts about Global Climate Change That You Won’t Read in the Popular Press

    1 Temperatures have been cooling since 2002, even as carbon dioxide has continued to rise.
    2 Carbon dioxide is a trace gas and by itself will produce little warming. Also, as CO2 increases, the incremental warming is less, as the effect is logarithmic so the more CO2, the less warming it produces.

    3 CO2 has been totally uncorrelated with temperature over the last decade, and significantly negative since 2002.

    4 CO2 is not a pollutant, but a naturally occurring gas. Together with chlorophyll and sunlight, it is an essential ingredient in photosynthesis and is, accordingly, plant food.

    5 Reconstruction of paleoclimatological CO2 concentrations demonstrates that carbon dioxide concentration today is near its lowest level since the Cambrian Era some 550 million years ago, when there was almost 20 times as much CO2 in the atmosphere as there is today without causing a “runaway greenhouse effect.”

    6 Temperature changes lead, not lag, CO2 changes on all time scales. The oceans may play a key role, emitting carbon dioxide when they warm as carbonated beverages lose fizz as they warm and absorbing it as they cool.

    7 Most of the warming in the climate models comes from the assumption that water vapor and precipitation increase as temperatures warm, a strong positive feedback. Water vapor is a far more important greenhouse gas than CO2. However, that assumption has been shown in observations and peerreviewed research to be wrong, and in fact water vapor and precipitation act as a negative feedback that reduces any small greenhouse warming from carbon dioxide.

    8 Indeed, greenhouse models show the warming should be greatest at mid to high atmosphere levels in the tropics. But balloon and satellite observations show cooling there. The greenhouse signature or DNA does not match reality, and the greenhouse models thus must greatly overstate the warming – and in a court of law would have to be acquitted of any role in global warming

    9 The sun has both direct and indirect effects on our climate. Solar activity changes on cycles of 11 years and longer. When the sun is more active it is brighter and a little hotter. More important though are the indirect effects. Ultraviolet radiation increases much more than the brightness and causes increased ozone production, which generates heat in the high atmosphere that works its way down, affecting the weather. Also, an active sun diffuses cosmic rays, which play an important role in nucleation of low clouds, resulting in fewer clouds. In all these ways the sun warms the planet more when it is active. An active sun in the 1930s and again near the end of the last century helped produce the observed warming periods. The current solar cycle is the longest in over 100 years, an unmistakable sign of a cooling sun that historical patterns suggest will stay so for decades.

    10 The multidecadal cycles in the ocean correlate extremely well with the solar cycles and global temperatures. These are 60 to 70 year cycles that relate to natural variations in the largescale circulations. Warm oceans correlate with warm global temperatures. The Pacific started cooling in the late 1990s and it accelerated in the last year, and the Atlantic has cooled from its peak in 2004. This supports the observed global land temperature cooling, which is strongly correlated with ocean heat content. Newly deployed N.O.A.A. buoys confirm global ocean cooling.

    11 Warmer ocean cycles are periods with diminished Arctic ice cover. When the oceans were warm in the 1930s to the 1950s, Arctic ice diminished and Greenland warmed. The recent ocean warming, especially in the 1980s to the early 2000s, is similar to what took place 70 years ago and the Arctic ice has reacted much the same way, with diminished summer ice extent.

    12 Antarctic ice has been increasing and the extent last year was the greatest in the satellitemonitoring era. We are running ahead of last year’s record pace.

    What will it take for the media to let go of their biases and begin doing their job, reporting the truth?

  48. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Please explain the context. Georgia Tech’s climate scientists worry that global warming is so severe that it will not be enough to merely control carbon emissions”

    Come on Ed quit playing dumb… wait a minute! You aren’t playing dumb – you are dumb! The out of context statement stands – it is a valid comment so you better try something else Ed. You can’t buy any credibility Ed!

  49. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “I’m sure this post will generate three or four more insults, none with any substantive information on anything.”

    Here we go again. Ed you are the king of insults. Just because you get a little taste of your own medicine you want to complain. Get with it Ed you lack any credibility. Everything you espouse is based on speculation and innuendo. You can’t prove anything and are simply making false accusations.

  50. Ed Darrell Says:

    What gives?”

    No Ed you just take things out of context to suit your purposes and your fraud. We have been watching you do this all along. It isn’t anything new for you.

    Please explain the context. Georgia Tech’s climate scientists worry that global warming is so severe that it will not be enough to merely control carbon emissions — something the experts have been saying all along. Georgia Tech urges a major reforestation effort in urban areas. So, Georgia Tech’s people work in the consensus that warming is occurring and that it is human caused and a major problem. They propose an easy and not-really-expensive solution for part of the problem. What was the point of your post?

    Ed said: “You don’t name anyone who opposes, but when I point out that there are more who do not oppose, enough to establish a consensus, rather than just concede the point gracefully, you ask for names?”

    Ed get real! This is horse pucky!

    Well, you’re right about that. I phrased it more gently. So again I wonder, what was your point? Why do post horse pucky? Why not discuss instead?

    I’m sure this post will generate three or four more insults, none with any substantive information on anything.

  51. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Look it up: There’s a difference between “gullibility” and “credibility.” You have the former, not the latter.”

    I looked up liar Ed – and they had your picture right there as the example.

    I also looked up the other two words – sorry Ed you have no credibility however you are very gullible.

  52. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Odder than hell: We have a couple of self-proclaimed skeptics in this thread, and they can’t seem to find any way to post any link or any source for their claims.”

    Ed it looks like your rectal cranial inversion is taking it’s toll on your eyesight now. You better get that looked at because there are a lot more than a couple. Gee Ed you could have been a tunnel rat.

  53. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Did you hit “send” too soon? On one hand you claim there’s no need to worry about warming, then you offer someone who disagrees with your assessment offering methods to fight greenhouse gases. Surely you cannot agree with anything in that press release — it’s what the IPCC has been saying for some years. Al Gore talked about it in 1993, and again in his movie.

    What gives?”

    No Ed you just take things out of context to suit your purposes and your fraud. We have been watching you do this all along. It isn’t anything new for you.

  54. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “You don’t name anyone who opposes, but when I point out that there are more who do not oppose, enough to establish a consensus, rather than just concede the point gracefully, you ask for names?”

    Ed get real! This is horse pucky!

  55. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “I don’t have rules against mooning here, but I may have to institute them. One of the more interesting questions: Does Hex know he’s mooning?”

    Ed you have been mooning this website ever since you put it up. You have been bent over the entire time I have been coming here.

  56. Ed Darrell Says:

    I have credibility

    Look it up: There’s a difference between “gullibility” and “credibility.” You have the former, not the latter.

  57. Ed Darrell Says:

    Hexmate, at least claiming a source though offering no citation or link, said Georgia Tech said:

    Reducing Greenhouse Gases May Not Be Enough to Slow Climate Change
    Georgia Tech City and Regional Planning Professor Brian Stone publishes a paper in the December edition of Environmental Science and Technology that suggests policymakers need to address the influence of global deforestation and urbanization on climate change, in addition to greenhouse gas emissions.

    Did you hit “send” too soon? On one hand you claim there’s no need to worry about warming, then you offer someone who disagrees with your assessment offering methods to fight greenhouse gases. Surely you cannot agree with anything in that press release — it’s what the IPCC has been saying for some years. Al Gore talked about it in 1993, and again in his movie.

    What gives?

  58. Ed Darrell Says:

    I noted that a petition of 700 random guys with some connection to science doesn’t rebut the consensus developed in 50 years of published research, as reflected in the contributions of the 15,000 scientists who participated in the IPCC report creation.

    Hexmate responded:

    Really Ed? What are their names?

    You don’t name anyone who opposes, but when I point out that there are more who do not oppose, enough to establish a consensus, rather than just concede the point gracefully, you ask for names?

    We’re talking the future of the planet. Schoolground bullying has no place in this discussion.

    IPCC has met 31 times over the past 20 years, with all of their actions open to the public. It’s an almost unprecedented transparency, because the issue is so important.

    Better yet there are more than 15,000 professionals who have debunked the IPCC report and the number grows larger every day.

    No you’re resorting to whole cloth prevarication.

    What makes you think the 700 don’t refute that consensus? You have no proof; you didn’t offer any factual data, just hearsay.

    Hexmate, the guy who plagiarizes cheaters and never offers any citations or links, claims that I follow his lead?

    I don’t have rules against mooning here, but I may have to institute them. One of the more interesting questions: Does Hex know he’s mooning?

  59. Hexmate Says:

    From a Georgia Tech Press Release:
    Reducing Greenhouse Gases May Not Be Enough to Slow Climate Change
    Georgia Tech City and Regional Planning Professor Brian Stone publishes a paper in the December edition of Environmental Science and Technology that suggests policymakers need to address the influence of global deforestation and urbanization on climate change, in addition to greenhouse gas emissions.
    According to Stone’s paper, as the international community meets in Copenhagen in December to develop a new framework for responding to climate change, policymakers need to give serious consideration to broadening the range of management strategies beyond greenhouse gas reductions alone.
    “Across the U.S. as a whole, approximately 50 percent of the warming that has occurred since 1950 is due to land use changes (usually in the form of clearing forest for crops or cities) rather than to the emission of greenhouse gases,” said Stone. “Most large U.S. cities, including Atlanta, are warming at more than twice the rate of the planet as a whole – a rate that is mostly attributable to land use change. As a result, emissions reduction programs – like the cap and trade program under consideration by the U.S. Congress – may not sufficiently slow climate change in large cities where most people live and where land use change is the dominant driver of warming.”
    According to Stone’s research, slowing the rate of forest loss around the world, and regenerating forests where lost, could significantly slow the pace of global warming.
    “Treaty negotiators should formally recognize land use change as a key driver of warming,” said Stone. “The role of land use in global warming is the most important climate-related story that has not been widely covered in the media.”
    Stone recommends slowing what he terms the “green loss effect” through the planting of millions of trees in urbanized areas and through the protection and regeneration of global forests outside of urbanized regions. Forested areas provide the combined benefits of directly cooling the atmosphere and of absorbing greenhouse gases, leading to additional cooling. Green architecture in cities, including green roofs and more highly reflective construction materials, would further contribute to a slowing of warming rates. Stone envisions local and state governments taking the lead in addressing the land use drivers of climate change, while the federal government takes the lead in implementing carbon reduction initiatives, like cap and trade programs.
    “As we look to address the climate change issue from a land use perspective, there is a huge opportunity for local and state governments,” said Stone. “Presently, local government capacity is largely unharnessed in climate management structures under consideration by the U.S. Congress. Yet local governments possess extensive powers to manage the land use activities in both the urban and rural areas.”

  60. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “One more post where Hexmate plagiarizes the work of others, and tries to hide it by providing no link to the original source.”

    Ed this is becoming a very lame excuse for you to use – like a broken record. You really need to work on coming up with something more creative. I have credibility Ed – you do not.

  61. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “In short, it’s a sucker-bait report designed to snare the gullible, almost completely lacking in science.”

    Ed the only thing sucking at this website is you. That is why we continue to hear that giant sucking sound from your location.

  62. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “That report was written by one Senate staffer. It had no input from any science panel of any repute.”

    Yeah Ed we know. Then we have you writing this crap – one misguided maggot. So what is the difference Ed – we have you and then a Senate staffer. You need to make up better stuff Ed.

  63. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “If it were accurate, the 700 names do not rebut in any way the consensus developed by the more than 15,000 professionals who contributed to the IPCC’s summary reports, which are official reports of the IPCC and the governments that cooperate in it, and are written by scientists.”

    Really Ed? What are their names? Better yet there are more than 15,000 professionals who have debunked the IPCC report and the number grows larger every day. What makes you think the 700 don’t refute that consensus? You have no proof; you didn’t offer any factual data, just hearsay. Nice try Ed but your pants and hanging around your ankles again Ed.

  64. Ed Darrell Says:

    Over 700 dissenting scientists (updates previous 650 report) from around the globe challenged man-made global warming claims made by the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and former Vice President Al Gore.

    That report was written by one Senate staffer. It had no input from any science panel of any repute. It featured a list of names of scientists claimed to oppose the idea of global warming, many of whom have asked to be taken off the list because they do not disagree with any part of the science that concludes humans cause a significant portion of global warming.

    Finally, the “report” was not an action of the committee in any way, nor was it an action of the minority of the committee.

    In short, it’s a sucker-bait report designed to snare the gullible, almost completely lacking in science.

    If it were accurate, the 700 names do not rebut in any way the consensus developed by the more than 15,000 professionals who contributed to the IPCC’s summary reports, which are official reports of the IPCC and the governments that cooperate in it, and are written by scientists.

    15,000 outnumbers 700 any day.

    One more post where Hexmate plagiarizes the work of others, and tries to hide it by providing no link to the original source.

  65. Moderation Says:

    Yes there is some consensus. Scientists generally agree on the evidence (measurements) that indicate climate change. They generally agree that humans have an impact. But they do not generally agree on the significance of the change or future implications. And they generally do not agree on the magnitude of the human impact.

    Gore says things like “the debate is over” and “catastrophic change in a decade”, and infers that he is stating a consensus.

    I see once again that Ed jumps on the semantics without offering any commentary on things that I state explicit interest in hearing.

  66. Hexmate Says:

    Over 700 dissenting scientists (updates previous 650 report) from around the globe
    challenged man-made global warming claims made by the United Nations
    Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and former Vice President Al Gore.
    This new 2009 255-page U.S. Senate Minority Report — updated from 2007’s
    groundbreaking report of over 400 scientists who voiced skepticism about the so-called
    global warming “consensus” — features the skeptical voices of over 700 prominent
    international scientists, including many current and former UN IPCC scientists, who have
    now turned against the UN IPCC. This updated report includes an additional 300 (and
    growing) scientists and climate researchers since the initial release in December 2007.
    The over 700 dissenting scientists are more than 13 times the number of UN scientists (52)
    who authored the media-hyped IPCC 2007 Summary for Policymakers.

  67. Ed Darrell Says:

    It is a lie to suggest that there is a scientific consensus on AGW. Call the skeptics any offensive name that you will, but that does not breed a consensus.

    “Consensus” is not the same thing as “unanimity.”

    It would be false to say there is a significant portion of scientists who are expert in the relevant areas who deny warming, or who deny that human-caused air pollution is a significant factor in the warming.

    It’s like talking to Humpty Dumpty, but you cannot claim that words mean what your whim wishes them to mean. In that way, we master the facts rather than letting ourselves be suckered by our own biases and gullibility.

    It is accurate to say there is consensus on warming. It is accurate to say there is consensus on human causation’s contribution.

  68. Moderation Says:

    It is a lie to suggest that there is a scientific consensus on AGW. Call the skeptics any offensive name that you will, but that does not breed a consensus.

    According to Hansen’s analysis, we could be:

    1) past the tipping point with only a few decades before catastrophic climate change occurs.

    or

    2) 50 years from the tipping point with another 200 years or so before dramatic climate change.

    or anywhere in between.

    I just wish that Ed would acknowledge the uncertainty that is intrinsic in the science. Even better I wish that he could unconditionally acknowledge this fact. Or better yet, he should give an honest analysis of the implications (global government, scientific funding, exploding regulation, ethics, etc.) of unquestionably accepting the Gore hypothesis. He also does little to offer practical solutions that are in tune with his theories.

    This would make him appear more objective, and less driven by a political agenda. But I suppose that the objective of this blog is to reach for the low hanging fruit.

  69. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “It takes a helluva lotta gall to plagiarize, and then to lie about it when you’re caught red-handed.

    Right now, Hex, you could tell me the sky is blue, and I can’t believe you.”

    Funny Ed but you could tell me you are real and I wouldn’t believe you. That’s because you are a fraud. Sorry Ed but the truth hurts doesn’t it. Keep sucking up your freedom those of us who served paid a heavy price for it.

  70. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Odder than hell: We have a couple of self-proclaimed skeptics in this thread, and they can’t seem to find any way to post any link or any source for their claims”

    Funny when the pot calls the kettle black isn’t it Ed? You still haven’t proven a thing other than what if… Just another notch in favor of your maggot status Ed.

  71. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “You have repeatedly plagiarized the work of others in this thread, posting material that is not yours, without any hint that someone else wrote it, without any attribution to the original source.”

    Nice try Ed but you failed again! You like to spin more than a top without and facts or data. Could be why you are dizzy Ed.

  72. Ed Darrell Says:

    The satellite record, the ultimate authority, is quite clear. No warming since 1998, and cooling since 2003. The later part of 2007, 2008 and 2009 have been colder worldwide by far.

    Right. Got a references for any of that? The satellite record, by the way, was found to be in error — it was skewing temperatures to the cool side. You’ve accounted for that already, of course. Have you?

    And then assuming you’ve got a reference, can you explain how temperatures staying at about the same level as 1998, the second hottest year ever recorded, suggests cooling? “Not quite as hot as hell” isn’t the same thing as heaven.

  73. Ed Darrell Says:

    Odder than hell: We have a couple of self-proclaimed skeptics in this thread, and they can’t seem to find any way to post any link or any source for their claims.

  74. Ed Darrell Says:

    Ed you got that all wrong. You see I’m not plagiarizing anything. The information I presented is public knowledge and is available to anyone, but you don’t like it because it contradicts your phony argument so you call it half-truths to try and diffuse it. You can’t understand anything Ed because you are tainted and a knower as Senge would characterize you.

    It takes a helluva lotta gall to plagiarize, and then to lie about it when you’re caught red-handed.

    Right now, Hex, you could tell me the sky is blue, and I can’t believe you.

  75. Ed Darrell Says:

    Hexmate said:

    Ed you got that all wrong. You see I’m not plagiarizing anything.

    You have repeatedly plagiarized the work of others in this thread, posting material that is not yours, without any hint that someone else wrote it, without any attribution to the original source.

    The cake-taker was when you plagiarized the company that writes and sells phony term-papers to college students: Plagiarizing a commercial-grade cheater.

    Here’s the original paper. Here’s where the author advertises his cheating business.

    Here’s the post where Hexmate plagiarizes the professional cheater.

    You asked once why I grant no credence to your bizarre claim that all polar bears can swim 200 miles? One, because every time I check one of your claims I find you failed to read the piece; and two, you don’t offer any way to corroborate your bizarre claims. We know you’re not a polar bear researcher. We know you’re not the sheriff of the town where you claim the bear was shot.

    Why does the idea of footnotes completely elude you, to the point of making your posts obnoxiously boorish?

  76. Ed Darrell Says:

    Spinning words like a politician, making it seem as though Gore has never said the things that he implies all the time. Everything with Gore is If.

    And I love how you dance around the fact that I place c02 in its rightful place as a “pollutant”. I.E. that its not a pollutant but instead is a natural gas.

    Without it, life on Earth ceases.

    By that standard we should disband the Red Cross. No sense teaching lifeguarding, since water is necessary for life. It’s natural, too, which means, by your standard I suppose, that it can’t be a “pollutant” if in the lungs and stomach of a drowning victim. (Check here, see if you can figure out what’s wrong with banning DHMO.)

    By a standard that says any gas that is also present naturally cannot called polluting, nothing could ever be labeled an air pollutant, except DDT particles.

    Please, spend some time studying acid rain, aerosols, and air pollution in general.

    For good measure, take a look at EPA’s proposal for controlling greenhouse gases.

    Read what I wrote, not what you think you know. If you find error in what I wrote, point it out. Don’t spin what I write for political reasons and pretend to be using science, and pretend not to be spinning.

  77. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “And you got a license to plagiarize and tell half-truths from this? I’m not sure I understand your reasoning. You served in a combat zone, so you can say anything you please, and no one may contradict you?
    If you had science, show it. If you had an argument, you’d make it.
    You have neither.

    Ed you got that all wrong. You see I’m not plagiarizing anything. The information I presented is public knowledge and is available to anyone, but you don’t like it because it contradicts your phony argument so you call it half-truths to try and diffuse it. You can’t understand anything Ed because you are tainted and a knower as Senge would characterize you. Yes Ed I served in a combat zone to protect your behind so you could shoot your mouth off, but along with shooting your mouth off Ed you will be held accountable for your comments. It is obvious Ed that you don’t like that. Too bad! Obviously if anyone contradicts you it draws your ire so you shouldn’t be surprised when you receive the same in return. I have presented the facts Ed so maybe you better come up with a different argument.

  78. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Then stop yammering about it. I took that oath you took four times. I regard it as a sacred oath, still. You do great dishonor to veterans of combat to hurl insult and claim righteousness where it doesn’t exist.
    If you’ve got a defense for lying about Rachel Carson and DDT, make it. So far you’ve not made it.”

    I’m not yammering Ed just pointing out the facts. Ed you shouldn’t lie like that. Wannabes like you are a dime a dozen Ed. The only oath you ever took Ed was to publish this crap you are putting out. I have provided plenty of data Ed but you won’t accept it. You want to try to distract the discussion from those facts by saying it is plagiarized, when it isn’t, or you denounce it because you cannot respond to it. It is your way of deflecting the facts as evidenced by your reponses and pointed out by several others in their posts. At least it is recognized you are a fraud Ed by more than just me. Keep up the good work Ed you continue earn your maggot status.

  79. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Gee, Hexmate, you’ve got fans. See the immediately previous post on “quality information.” Note the source.”

    Hee hee, that’s more than you have Ed!

  80. Hexmate Says:

    Nick said: “have fun swallowing, Hex, because I don’t think you’re going to be able to conjure up much of a counterargument to any of these: SO really..it’s time you, Hex, and your fellow jokers shut up. You don’t know what you’re talking about. All you’re really doing is exercising a childish hissy fit because you don’t like Al Gore and the Democrats.”

    Nick this is nothing more than some drivel you conjured up that is an oversimplification of a complex issue without any data or facts to support it. You managed to comingle it with everything you could think of that might support your theory but provide no meaningful explanation to go with it. The 99.99999% figure is really a scream since it has nothing to support it and has obviously been pulled out of some dark tunnel you have. You should try again Nick but this time use some data and facts that you want everyone else but yourself to subscribe to. Your double standard bit you in the behind this time Nick. Al who and Dem whats? Aren’t they both asses?

  81. Illumination Says:

    I am also amazed at the level of vitriol people like the purveyor of this site pour onto any other view that challenges there own.

    Spinning words like a politician, making it seem as though Gore has never said the things that he implies all the time. Everything with Gore is If.

    And I love how you dance around the fact that I place c02 in its rightful place as a “pollutant”. I.E. that its not a pollutant but instead is a natural gas.

    Without it, life on Earth ceases.

    AGW is the biggest none problem in the history of our world, and it does wonderful things for those who wish to distract from real environmental issues. What better than to hoodwink the people into thinking the very breath they exhale needs to be regulated and taxed.

    You, Ed, can call people names and spray bile all over the very real work of statisticians, geologists, astro physicists and climatoligists alike who disagree with you, but you’ll never convince those of us who have noticed our blankets no longer leaving our beds in the summer that warming is happening.

    Eggplant, Okra, Peppers, Tomatoes (especially tomatoes)along with cash crops have been ruinous for two years running, or very difficult to grow because of the record cold temperatures.

    Over 3,000 cold weather records were set in July alone in the continental United States. Earliest snow falls on record in Austria, Spain, and many other places this year. Incredible snow storms in the winter in Peru and across south America. Global cooling has set in and the satellite record shows it.

    You should check out the work of Piers Corbyn, or do you think hes a hack too, Ed? his forecasts have been accurate 90 percent of the time, calling hurricanes and storm activity months in advance. His winter forecasts are accurate enough that I plan my spring plantings around them.

    AGW is dead in the water. We need to listen to the scientists who are actually calling weather patterns accurately, rather tan government agencies who routinely call for scorching summers that never materialize.

  82. Illumination Says:

    The one thing warmists miss over and over again, you included Ed is that there is no warming.

    The satellite record, the ultimate authority, is quite clear. No warming since 1998, and cooling since 2003. The later part of 2007, 2008 and 2009 have been colder worldwide by far.

    And the arctic has regained ice cover the last 3 years running even as this winter saw Antarctic ice cover reach its furthest extent yet.

    How do your models deal with these troubling facts?

  83. Moderation Says:

    You should not recklessly engage in matters of logic becuase it is not your strong suit.

    But instead of speaking to the wall, allow me to take Dr. Hansen’s analysis at face value and assume that his projections and analysis is very accurate. This should allow the conversation to move past certain road blocks which will not be resolved considering the lack of time that can be dedicated to a less hypothetical debate.

    Hansen states that the tolerable long term CO2 limit is in the range of 300-500 ppm and we currently sit at 385 ppm. He suggests a “safe” target of 350 ppm or less. The current rate of increase is 2 ppm/year.

    He defines the tipping point as the concentration that will lead to radical climate change if “long mantained.” And he admits that other factors make it difficult to predict how long is too long. So when one speaks of the tipping point, one refers to a concentration that cannot be indefinitely maintained without radical changes to the climate.

    He uses paleoclimate history to correlate ocean levels to CO2 levels and concludes that the equilibrium condition for 385 ppm is several meters higher than current ocean levels, which may take centuries or perhaps only decades to acheive.

    (I find there to be a few weaknesses surrounding this analysis, but I will avoid discussing them for the benefit of this exercise)

    He says that other factors such as El Nino, ocean behavoir, and solar activity appear to be interrupting global warming which may provide more time to meet the CO2 challenge but are not long term effects that will not change equilibrium conditions.

    I think that I have provided a fairly accurate description of Hansen’s position in the paper that Ed provided.

    I also contend that Hansen is not far from my general position on the matter – our current activity is not sustainable but the timing and magnitude of changes is far from known. The timing is especially important for me. It also appears to be the most uncertain factor.

    Hansen refers to phasing out all non-CO2 capturing coal plants in the next 25 years. I have often seen adds that declare that there is no such thing as “clean coal.” Hansen seems to disagree with this claim. It is also inconsistent with the claims that building new coal plants will “bankrupt them” because of a price on the emission of CO2. I find a large gap between Hansen’s position on coal and the public perception. I am not aware of the price of “CO2 capturing” but if it can be made affordable, coal still appears to be a viable option. It does not seem wise to increase the cost to force them into capturing technology which itself is currently expensive.

    Hansen speaks of policies that must be stopped but offers little in the way of acheiving the desired results, atleast in this article.

    It would appear to me that nuclear power is the most appropriate bridge between CO2 producing power and renewable sources. Considering the 25 year window, there should be plenty of time to build reactors in this country. Cost is not a factor when we consider the larger picture. Nuclear power is very clean to operate and is fully developed and capable of meeting our needs. However, current policy decisions suggest that nuclear power is being discarded instead of embraced. The reasons for this appear to more political than anything else.

    The broader view of Hansen’s position is that a worldwide effort to reduce CO2 emissions must be acheived. The US is the largest contributor of CO2 in the world but China and India are projected to account for 80% of new emissions. Unfortuantely, I do not beleive that such worldwide cooperation is acheivable in the near future (next 25 years) and Hansen’s predictions will be tested on a much longer timescale than he and others desire.

  84. Ed Darrell Says:

    I will take some time to read the technical side of the article. But at a first glance I notice that it states,

    “The time available to reduce the human-made forcing is uncertain, because models of the global system and critical components such as ice sheets are inadequate.”

    Which means, simply, time grows short. Early calculations assumed no tipping points until we doubled CO2, at about 450 ppm. Over the past 20 years, however, climate shifts have run much faster than anyone anticipated. Glacier National Park is nearly clear of glaciers. 48 species of birds in the continental U.S. have moved north of traditional nesting grounds, to cooler areas. Insurance rates for all the states along coastal areas are much higher because the storm damage is much higher than had been predicted. Rain belts are moving more quickly (more starvation in the Sahel), and generally warming proceeds much faster than even the conservative estimates of the IPCC.

    Models didn’t predict warming would occur so fast.

    and

    “Climate models have many deficiencies in their abilities to simulate climate change”

    The models have been considerably underestimating the speed of warming.

    It also seems to have an unusual political tone for a scientific article. I will do my best to dissect the scientific aspect of the article, and perhaps I will seek the opinion of my professors who specialize in atmospheric phenomena.

    In context, that’s really funny for you to say. You offer political groups like the Heartland Institute for your evidence, expounding in areas in which they have no expertise. This paper is written by experts with much experience, in a distinguished peer-review journal.

    You don’t like that the science denies the political points? That’s not political. That’s what happens when the science is straight.

    I will take some time before reaching conclusions.

    Also, Ed, before I run along to the swing set,

    It was a joke on the seven circles of hell. Denialism damages a sense of humor, I see.

    I want to remind you that when I type many things and you choose to respond to only a few things (or in this case you supply 1 source when I asked for 4, and have no response to my other points concerning your logic or fear mongering, you don’t mention the link to the Spanish professor) then I tend to beleive that you do not have certain answers, and that you struggle to acknowledge your own mistakes, and that you would rather ignore than concede.

    I’m limited for time, too. When you make a half-hearted attempt to answer, when you use political sources to answer a science question, I’m much less likely to pay it any attention.

    As to the argument that Spain’s cap-and-trade policy is a disaster, I can’t find any corroboration of Spain’s experience either way, outside of political commentary. You’ve offered no source of any substance on the issue.

    When I pointed this out to you, you said:

    This is a consistent error on Ed’s part that he fails to grasp. What comes first, the chicken or the egg? You label someone as hardcore anti-clean and therefore there analysis is driven by their position. But it just as valid to suggest that their position is driven by their analysis. In fact by Ed’s reasoning no one should listen to him because he is “hardcore clean” and obviously bias. (This is a statement of logic.)

    it’s not a question of logic. National Review Online is not science, nor economics. Heartland isn’t science nor economics. Both sources have acknowledged skews to the right.

    Plus, they have no analysis. They have anecdotal claims that look cookie-cutter, like they came out of the Republican National Committee press information room, faxed to candidates who can be counted on to use the charges faithfully and never question them.

    Just like when I used to write for them. They were almost always dishonest, so I stopped. (If one of our guys got a hole-in-one in golf, they’d report he shot a zero.

    This movie starts out with false information pushed as propaganda against Rachel Carson. You’ve got quite a challenge to establish that their other information is unbiased and correct. You’ve not come close.

  85. Moderation Says:

    I bet you wish I would run along. That would be convenient for you.

    Perhaps you would like to pretend that I am a child that likes to play games. But the scientific version of the article is exactly what I was looking for. I have co-authored a few articles in peer reviewed journals during my time at college. I am no stranger to scientific langauge and data. Your appreciation of my education and reasoning is seriously deficient.

    You say I wont “like who did the work” when the fact is that you are the one who values the cover over the content. Do not project your insecurities onto me.

    I will take some time to read the technical side of the article. But at a first glance I notice that it states,

    “The time available to reduce the human-made forcing is uncertain, because models of the global system and critical components such as ice sheets are inadequate.”

    and

    “Climate models have many deficiencies in their abilities to simulate climate change”

    It also seems to have an unusual political tone for a scientific article. I will do my best to dissect the scientific aspect of the article, and perhaps I will seek the opinion of my professors who specialize in atmospheric phenomena.

    I will take some time before reaching conclusions.

    Also, Ed, before I run along to the swing set, I want to remind you that when I type many things and you choose to respond to only a few things (or in this case you supply 1 source when I asked for 4, and have no response to my ohter points concerning your logic or fear mongering, you dont mention the link to the Spanish professor) then I tend to beleive that you do not have certain answers, and that you struggle to acknowledge your own mistakes, and that you would rather ignore than concede.

  86. Ed Darrell Says:

    Moderation, you run along. Mikhail Bulgakov and I are having a discussion here in the First Circle of Hell; we’re discussing this paper:
    Physics > Atmospheric and Oceanic Physics
    Title: Target atmospheric CO2: Where should humanity aim?
    (The article says 350 ppm CO2)

    It has the answers you seek, but you won’t like who did the work.

    Almost English version, here.

  87. Moderation Says:

    Ed,

    I am still waiting on those sources that I mentioned in my post on [November 6, 2009 at 11:56 am].

    Hurry, the sixth circle of hell is approaching!

  88. Ed Darrell Says:

    The argument that co2 kills, citing the death cloud as a valid argument defending the AGW position is hilarious.

    It is an adequate and elegant refutation of the claim that CO2 cannot possibly be a pollutant because it is perfectly harmless.

    While you’re pondering the issue, a wise person with some wiles in chemistry would note that large concentrations of CO2 kill with a different mechanism than do the small concentrations of CO2 that act as greenhouse gases.

    But if you’re willing to defend those who are so foolish as you now see to claim CO2 cannot possibly harm, we know that you’re not basing any of your claims against warming and in favor of CO2 in fact; we may wonder whether you can tell fact from wish.

    CO2 decreasing? Have you looked at the data for the past 200 years? Not a greenhouse gas? Have you ever studied greenhouses, or gases — or any physics at all?

  89. Ed Darre Says:

    Climate Change is also a wonderfully Orwellian term. Alarmists love to talk about it.

    Thank the Republican Conferences for promulgating it. Your side, the deniers, like “climate change” because they can make foolhardy arguments, like, “climate is always changing.”

    Odd that you can see through that tactic, but haven’t figured out the other attacks to prey on gullibility.

  90. Ed Darrell Says:

    That doesn’t make it a pollutant. If it does than almost everything else on earth should be regulated too.

    What is a pollutant, in your defining? How does CO2 not qualify, when SO2 and NOx do?

    Have you ever heard of ozone?

    I would ask Ed what he thinks of the fact the the level of increase in atmospheric co2 has actually decreased in recent years even though we burn more fossil fuels than ever.

    That would be wonderful. Got any evidence of any significant decline? No one else has detected anything more than a minor variation, no end to the 200 hundred-year trend of increasing CO2.

    And every cap and trade scheme Ive seen IS A TAX on Carbon.

    Catalytic converters amount to a tax, too. They work wonderfully. The ban on tetraethyl lead in gasoline was a sort of a tax, too — but it raised our national collective IQ measurably. I fear sometimes it hasn’t gotten to every neighborhood, though, like when people deny warming, deny rising CO2 levels, or claim that CO2 can’t be a pollutant because it’s “natural” or for some even more silly reason.

    In economics, what is taxed decreases; what is subsidized, increases. Sounds to me as if a tax on CO2 is a good idea, economically, to clean up CO2 pollution. Got a better idea that doesn’t involve making the U.S. a nation of surrender monkeys?

    I can’t believe people like this still exist out here. AGW is a joke, and will soon be thrown to the midden heap of rejected science, and thank Providence for that.

    You sound like the auto manufacturers in 1969. They said there was no way to improve fuel efficiency in autos, and no way anyone could ever control SO2 and NOx emissions from autos — and they argued that SO2 improved crop yields in otherwise alkaline soils, like the deserts of Utah, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Texas.

    Of course, no one farmed those lands, significantly. Where crops were grown they were alkaline-tolerant, and SO2 ruined them. And SO2 ruined forests across the rest of the nation.

    See Santayana’s words of wisdom at the top of the right column. We’ve heard people claim great human-made calamity was not a problem before. They were wrong then, too.

  91. Illumination Says:

    Climate Change is also a wonderfully Orwellian term. Alarmists love to talk about it.

    However, its a misnomer. Climate changes always. The only thing stable about the climate is change. Ask a farmer, they know the weather far better than white coats sitting in offices reading digital temeprature read outs from monitoring stations that have all been shown to have heat bias’.

    Blaming man for climate change is a wonderfully useful tool to promote an agenda that will line the pockets of those pushing it.

    And, as long as theirs storms, freak rains, tornatoes, hurricances, etc., (all things which have happened since the world began) They’ll be able to say “See? Humankind did that. Lets tax/regulate/ and destroy the hopes of billions of people.

    Before you folks call me an oil baron or some such logic, I am actually currently a hands on organic farmer who doesn’t even own a tractor. We use human power over machine power everywhere we can, and we are working to get a whole community off grid, utilizing alternative energy.

    I believe in living responsibly, but AGW theory is junk science of the lowest order.

    I was once as you are Ed. Then I woke up. I’m not in denial, nor am I afraid to face my fears. Ive seen both plarities of belief, and the real science does not support AGW.

    That is, the data, the numbers, have shown time and time again that its wrong.

  92. Illumination Says:

    Moderation: Co2 can kill everybody, everything, everywhere…..

    So can oxygen, spaghetti, sun light, and a hundred thousand other things.

    The argument that co2 kills, citing the death cloud as a valid argument defending the AGW position is hilarious. Of course it can kill. That doesn’t make it a pollutant. If it does than almost everything else on earth should be regulated too.

    Though I dont wish to get into a huge debate here, Al Gore does indeed promote the idea that sea levels will rise and kill us all. Hell, he even claims that Arctic winters will be ice free in 100 years. What a laugh, all because of us and our tiny contribution to atmospheric c02.

    I would ask Ed what he thinks of the fact the the level of increase in atmospheric co2 has actually decreased in recent years even though we burn more fossil fuels than ever.

    And every cap and trade scheme Ive seen IS A TAX on Carbon.

    I can’t believe people like this still exist out here. AGW is a joke, and will soon be thrown to the midden heap of rejected science, and thank Providence for that.

  93. Moderation Says:

    Nick,

    let me provide some clarity if not counter arguments to some of your points.

    (1) and (2) are valid statements but are not described with very much context. For instance, you say “pollution” and according to Ed you should include CO2 in this category. I’m not sure how CO2 (and some other atmospheric pollutants) cause people to be sick and less productive. If you consider any city or town, you will see that productivity ranges greatly among individuals who are exposed to similar amounts of pollution. Actaully, some of the most polluted cities are the most productive because pollution is often a biproduct of being productive.

    (3) I would contend that the Soviet Unions economic and political policies (socialism, state control, military spending) had more to do with their economic condition than their environmental policies. The same can be said for the US policies of capitalism and the free market. It is misleading (and wrong) to say that our environmental policies are what made our economy superior.

    Plus it is not so clear to suggest that increasing pollution regulation will increase our manufacturing capability. Some would argue the opposite since manufacturers often produce pollution and will likely experience increased costs under certain regulations.

    (4) Two points to make hear. First, I guess you wont mind taing your bike to work, or re-using your bath water, or not using heat or ac, or minimizing all of your energy consumption, etc. because all of these things would be consistent with your position.

    Second, you state that global warming has prevented the state of Minnesota from being shutdown by snowfall a couple of days per year. That may or may not be the case, however I dont see this as such a negative thing. And if you consider your previous statement or economic productivity, you have to admit that global warming has made the state more productive, atleast in this one instance.

    (5) Yes most scientists agree that the climate is changing. But just as important is that fact that “Experts disagree, however, on the timing, magnitude and patterns of future climate changes.” This is a very important distinction.

    Also, I wouldnt label it a conspiracy, but I will suggest that forcing the US to pay trillons of dollars to other countries because of our CO2 production certaintly creates an incentive for these countires to promote ideas that facilitate the acquisition of our money.

    (6) This is a valid statement, but instead of “lessening our dependence on oil” it would be more accurate to say “lessening our dependence on foreign oil.” It is unfortunate that those who complain about our dependence on the middle east for oil also complain about the idea of drilling for our own oil on our own land.

    (7) same as #6, Environmentalists continue to make oil exploration in this country very difficult. And they often delay the discovery and extraction of oil that we do harvest. In this way, they are perpetuating our dependence on foriegn oil and aiding the profit of people like Bin Laden.

  94. Nick Kelsier Says:

    have fun swallowing, Hex, because I don’t think you’re going to be able to conjure up much of a counterargument to any of these:

    1: pollution makes people sick. When people are sick they are less economically productive. Furthermore, sick people cost more. They are a bigger drain on the economy than healthy people.
    2: Yes, installing cleaners to deal with pollution is a short term expense…but it long term saves money. A factory that doesn’t put out as much pollution also has to spend less on dealing with the pollution they used to put out.
    3: Tightening the pollution requirements in this country..producing clean technology would reinvigorate the manufacturing base in this country. It would also reinvigorate and strengthen the economy. If you want to argue otherwise then explain how come the Soviet Union, who was extremely lax in the area of environmental protection, never came to close to having an economy as strong as ours?
    4: If you want to argue that we shouldn’t worry about pollution and climate change, which is the more accurate term than “global warming” then I’m sure you won’t mind living next to or on a heavily polluted site, right? Then you can have fun trying to explain why Minnesota’s snow fall average is below the norm. There used to be at least one or two days every year where the snow in my state was so bad that the entire state shut down. That hasn’t happened since I was in college. That would be 15 years ago now.
    5: 99.99999% of the world’s scientists agree that climate change is real. Not only is the opposition arguing from ignorance they are also arguing that there is a vast world wide conspiracy going on. Which is realistically and statistically impossible.
    6: National Security. If we lessened or outright got rid of our dependence on oil we wouldn’t have to import it from countries and areas of the world that don’t like us. In short, we could tell the Middle East, for example, to go **** itself.
    7: We wouldn’t be giving money to the terrorists that attacked us on 9-11. You know…Osama bin Laden. Quite a lot of the funding he gets, that other terrorist organizations get, is from oil. We are paying the people that are trying to kill us.

    SO really..it’s time you, Hex, and your fellow jokers shut up. You don’t know what you’re talking about. All you’re really doing is exercising a childish hissy fit because you don’t like Al Gore and the Democrats.

  95. Ed Darrell Says:

    Gee, Hexmate, you’ve got fans. See the immediately previous post on “quality information.” Note the source.

  96. Term Papers Says:

    It’s great to see good information being shared.

  97. Moderation Says:

    Ed says “Good studies show that runaway greenhouse effect starts at 350 ppm CO2. The temperature in 2050 could be just a couple of degrees warmer, or if the near-worst-case scenarios break and we lose a major sink like the Amazon forest or Congo forest, it could be five degrees warmer.”

    Source these “good studies” please. (Notice how polite I am!)

    Ed says, “So let’s state it scientifically: We may gain just one more degree Fahrenheit by 2050, which means a cost in damages and mitigation of several trillions of dollar…again depending partly on how rain patterns shift.”

    Again I do not see a source.

    Also I wonder if your projection takes into account any sort of gain from global warming. For instance if Greenland becomes more habitable – I would imagine this is not factored into your source.

    Ed says, “Or we may just have grossly reduced crops, greatly increased insect and weed pests, and wells and aquifers going dry, but not dry yet. In that case, it will be only three or four times as large and as bad as the Dust Bowl”

    Again I would like a source that can demonstrates an effect that is 3 or 4 times as large and as bad as the dust bowl. And again, if we have reduced crops in some locations will they increase in others? Or are you stating both increases and decreases with a net decrease?

    Ed says, “No, I can’t guarantee Lawrence, Kansas, will be under 50 feet of sand. It may be only three feet.”

    Again I will need a source on this that demonstrates how Lawrence, Kansas will be consumed by sand. Is this a prediction for 2050? What will happen if we stop CO2 emissions completely, 1 inch of sand? You seem to be slipping into speculation, to say the least.

    Ed says, “I also think that your choice, between the sixth circle of hell and the seventh circle, presents two bad options.”

    This is fear mongering, plain and simple.
    What circle of hell do we currently inhabit?

    Ed says, “The forecast is clear.”

    According to what source.
    BTW, what will be the wheather in Maryland on Sunday afternoon? temperature? clouds? wind? I was going to goto the park before the world ends.

    Ed says, “Why hell at all, if we can prevent it?”

    Is this the scientific term or just more fear mongering?

    Ed’s source says, “Experts disagree, however, on the timing, magnitude and patterns of future climate changes.”

    Oh, look it is a source. I thought they became extinct due to global climate change. Now I wonder where I have seen this stated before….I remember, I wrote this on Ed’s blog.

    Ed says, “We know a lot more about every part of the system today than we knew 30 years ago when the climate guys got it right. I am unwilling to say more knowledge only confuses us. That’s not what scientists say.”

    Which climate guys predicted a decrease in temperatures over the last decade over 30 years ago? A source for this would be nice. I recently attended a seminar on the current state of GCMs (did I mention this already?) and I am aware of our current level of understanding. And since technology has an exponential rate of return we can expect to know a lot more in 30 more years…exponentially more, which will make our current understanding appear to be poor.

    Ed says, “I think it’s important to note that, so far as I can find, only hard-core anti-science and anti-clean-environment guys cite Spain as instructive”

    This is a consistent error on Ed’s part that he fails to grasp. What comes first, the chicken or the egg? You label someone as hardcore anti-clean and therefore there analysis is driven by their position. But it just as valid to suggest that their position is driven by their analysis. In fact by Ed’s reasoning no one should listen to him because he is “hardcore clean” and obviously bias. (This is a statement of logic.)

    Considering what I just wrote, it is ironic that Ed would start off his comment with “as far as I can find.” Not surprisingly, as far as Ed can find, only bias sources disagree with him and only onjective ones support him. This is an annoying problem when trying to have a discussion with him, and not something I think he will ever comprehend.

    Ed say, “(see the Congressional Research Service report on H.R. 2454, for example — while no ringing endorsement, neither does it support a claim that Spain’s system is analogous, nor even instructive”

    While I will not completely discredit the CRS, I will suggest that being the “most objective” doesnt even imply that they are accurate. Considering the present political climate, I seem to be less trusting of congressional reports than Ed.

    But more to the point, did Ed read that entire report? Because I sure didnt. But I did search “spain” and “spanish” strings and couldnt find anything. Ed, please direct me to where they dont consider it analagous to Spanish policies.

    But my point about Spain is based on experts from…Spain who do see analogies and are confused by the support for cap and trade in this country.

    Check out this link (you too Ed):

    http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/category/press-releases/

    It contains a bunch of different articles from different perspectives such as this one from a Spanish professor.

    http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2009/09/24/spanish-prof-to-congress-avoid-spains-failed-experiment-with-green-jobs/

    Ed says,”If your portrayal of Spain’s experience is correct, our experience with cap-and-trade in the U.S. is that it works like a charm.”

    Not to be too logical here, but how does “our experience” follow from “my potrayal.” (If A, then B.) ?

    Ed says, “I think it’s immoral to do nothing at all”

    Surprise! Ed is a liberal. Atleast that is what I hear liberals say all the time. It is another logical error.

    To say “it is immoral to do nothing” in no way implies that “it is moral to do something”

    Let me break this down because I know Ed’s head hurts right know.

    Suppose Ed sees two students fighting in his class. I would assert that it is immoral for him to do nothing. Suppose he walks over to them and spits on them. He didnt do nothing. But he didnt act morally either. In fact, saying “it is immoral to do nothing” doesnt even imply that doing nothing is the worse thing you can do.

    It is very frustrating to hear liberals repeat this statement all of the time and pretend or believe that it justifies “something.”

    And if Ed was aware of my position (which he admitted he is not) he would realize that the “best” action is what I am interested in. In no way do I imply that “nothing” is the best course.

  98. Ed Darrell Says:

    Ed this has nothing to do with my service,

    Then stop yammering about it. I took that oath you took four times. I regard it as a sacred oath, still. You do great dishonor to veterans of combat to hurl insult and claim righteousness where it doesn’t exist.

    If you’ve got a defense for lying about Rachel Carson and DDT, make it. So far you’ve not made it.

  99. Ed Darrell Says:

    Ed I served 542 days, 3 hours, and 12 minutes, in a combat zone, something you wouldn’t understand.

    And you got a license to plagiarize and tell half-truths from this? I’m not sure I understand your reasoning. You served in a combat zone, so you can say anything you please, and no one may contradict you?

    If you had science, show it. If you had an argument, you’d make it.

    You have neither.

  100. dood Says:

    To right a wrong doesn’t require a leftist or a rightist. It requires common sense.

    Lets just be dead honest with ourselves, Mr Gore has made more money scaring people into believing in global warming, than any other ecological science approach ever has. While cancer produces tons of money for scam organizations and grants that often fail to emphasize cancer is considerably a dietary ailment, and fully list possible causes.
    All beside the point, but important to note the greed that took over some of these organizations.

    Now they can make cancer grant fund quality taxes regarding co2 emissions. Holy crap ecoscience used to cower at requesting grant increases, they had nothing people we’re worried about, until this.

    Your only link to c02 causing greenhouse gases, is really that photosynthesis utilizes c02 for cell growth.
    The more trees you have the more moisture drawn from the ground, and let into the air seasonally, but at the very same time, you get more oxygen.
    I don’t see how green plants and more oxygen are horrible things when considering the smaller scope humanity plays overall, but I do believe there are better approaches to solving the problems then taxing taxing taxing people.

    Simply google GWreview_oism300.pdf, its not a bad explanation.

    Now I would like to note however that this form of taxing is incredibly dangerous, as it panders to companies already working in advanced science sectors and does not positively entice existing energy businesses into proper transitional solutions. (if you think taxing is incentive, truth be told, its not the best one)
    In reality we’ll simply be relying more on foreign sources of oil that don’t sign into this ridiculous carbon cap and trade policy.
    So quickly we forget the UN oil for food scandal.

    But all this is fine and dandy for us to watch happen because it’s our politicians retarded @#%s on the line here, or is it, when they finally manage to privatize our law enforcement and jails like Arizona is trying with all of the misplaced taxing, and the lawyers will get paid more putting you in jail, and consolidated corporations will make a banking profit when you get ‘time off’ for ‘hard labor’ building state owned solar energy systems, farming biomass, or cleaning ditches.

    Eh, if science weren’t a monopolized by state funds, we probably wouldn’t be in this mess, and if the we had proper support and transparency structures for small businesses, instead of cutting them down and choking them with fees and taxes, our economy would probably be fine, assuming corps and banks didn’t run our government. Thanks for picking the same people when you said the same people wouldn’t work mr pres.

    No no, we should be VERY careful examining the sciences that support policy that concurrently benefit some politicans.
    Healthcare, ecoscience, energy solutions, grant funding, if someones getting paid more after a policy, it’s in our best interest to make sure THEY have it RIGHT.

  101. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Which war did you serve in, Hex? It was no more honorable than those who served in peacetime, nor more honorable than those who saved your life. When faced with your current misdeeds, you claim a mantle of heroism for deeds in the past as you denigrate others. Anyone who reads scriptures and the stories of David understands that heroism in in the act, and not in the person.”

    Excellent job Ed! That was spoken like a true maggot. You are living up to your title of parasite with great zeal Ed. Ed I served 542 days, 3 hours, and 12 minutes, in a combat zone, something you wouldn’t understand. You can’t comprehend this Ed as evidenced by your commentary and it further affirms that freedom has a flavor only those who have fought for it will ever know. Never take anyone’s service to their country lightly no matter whether it was in war or peace time, it demonstrates a complete lack of respect for the sacrifice that person made. You should be ashamed Ed! If you had any sense of credibility Ed you would know that those of us who served are not heroes. We regard those who made the ultimate sacrifice as the heroes and we honor them every day. We just did our job Ed. You haven’t earned the right to judge any of us especially me Ed, so I will disregard your comments as it only demonstrates your ignorance along with your pompous behavior. You are rather liberal with your quoting of the scriptures, but you obviously do not adhere or believe in them as evidenced by your perpetuating this scam. You should consider yourself fortunate to be able to portend this farce because of the sacrifices we veterans made so that you could shoot your mouth off.

    .

  102. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “As to hollow words: Facts count for something. “Facts are stubborn things,” Reagan was fond of quoting (he attributed it to John Adams). Your past service, if it was, does not justify current calumny, nor current claims that step into the Bizarro world. If you had any facts to back you up, you’d be talking about them.”

    Yes Ed facts are stubborn things and you cannot seem to come up with any. Slander Ed? You are the king of slander Ed. Ed this has nothing to do with my service, which is factual, and your comment obviously confirms your lack of service. I presented the facts Ed buy you deny them each time

  103. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “You genuinely don’t think CO2 functions as a greenhouse gas?
    Wow! How many bridges do you own?”

    Ed you should read what the experts say so you would know the answer to that question.

    I don’t own any bridges Ed but I’m sure you do.

  104. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “I’m not surprised that you can neither explain what your point was. I doubt you ever had one.

    Don’t you at least blush when you steal the work of others, though?”

    Ed this is common knowledge that maybe you should go read. There is no theft taking place that’s just your usual cop out statement when you can’t retort. You can certainly lay claim to the same fact that you have no point Ed as you continue to demonstrate with this farce you created.

  105. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “The ultimate defense from a guy who plagiarizes a site that sells college papers to cheaters, who claims against chemistry and physics that CO2 doesn’t absorb energy at the frequencies it does, and who has been sucked in by hoaxes spun by people he idolizes.

    Hex, you oughta sit back and let people who really know carry the ball for you.”

    Gee Ed this sounds just like you! The ultimate defense from a guy who idolizes Al Gore who spins hoaxes along with a supporting cast of frauds like yourself, who makes wild claims based on data they have made up to suck people into a scam. You trying to say it takes one to know one Ed? Watch out for that claymore Ed – I don’t want you to trip over it.

    Ed you should sit back and relax because you are heating up the planet with all that hot air you are spewing out.

  106. Ed Darrell Says:

    I would like to know answers to questions like,

    Assuming all other factors stay constant, what will be the gloabl temperature in 2050 if CO2 emissions stay at their current level? What will be the temperature in 2050 if man-made CO2 emissions were zero?

    Good studies show that runaway greenhouse effect starts at 350 ppm CO2. The temperature in 2050 could be just a couple of degrees warmer, or if the near-worst-case scenarios break and we lose a major sink like the Amazon forest or Congo forest, it could be five degrees warmer. Two degrees will probably trigger the collapse of Greenland’s ice mantle (there are signs it has already begun and we may be too late to stop it).

    From what I have seen, no one can accurately make thess predictions. In fact it is a very complicated question. And in this light, it seems dishonest when people (Gore) suggest that “global catastrophe” could arrive in 10 years without “radical and immediate” action.

    So let’s state it scientifically: We may gain just one more degree Fahrenheit by 2050, which means a cost in damages and mitigation of several trillions of dollars, probable depopulation of the lowlands of Bengla Desh, collapse of a few major fisheries, and collapse of major grain producing regions — again depending partly on how rain patterns shift.

    Can we say for certain Kansas will look like the mid-Sahara? No. Maybe it will look like central Arizona instead.

    You think sacrificing Kansas isn’t a big deal? Have you talked to anyone from Kansas about this? Have you spoken to anyone who eats bread?

    Or we may just have grossly reduced crops, greatly increased insect and weed pests, and wells and aquifers going dry, but not dry yet. In that case, it will be only three or four times as large and as bad as the Dust Bowl, which nearly knocked this nation out in 1937 and 1938, though greatly affecting only about five states.

    I kinda like things the way they are, and I’m willing to fight to keep Kansas from turning into the Sahara.

    This is why he is accused of “fear mongering.” It is true that anything “could” accur in 10 years, but to suggest that he is speaking for the entire scientific community is absurd.

    The air pollution scientists were right about what happened if we controlled particulates and aerosols, but didn’t control greenhouse gases. I regret that you are unfamiliar with the predictions. They said that the trend toward warming would accelerate. They appear to have been absolutely correct.

    I also think that your choice, between the sixth circle of hell and the seventh circle, presents two bad options. We can prevent a lot of damage if we act now. It will be much more difficult and much more expensive to mitigate any damage if we do not act now. Why hell at all, if we can prevent it?

    Pay now for reducing pollution at lower cost and higher effect, or wait for the disaster and pay more money for less bang. That’s our choice.

    No, I can’t guarantee Lawrence, Kansas, will be under 50 feet of sand. It may be only three feet.

    I think gambling with our children like that is irresponsible.

    So I think it is appropriate for me to draw similarities between the misleading statements on both sides.

    It is honrable of you, Ed, to raise awareness of current environmental trends. These are important pieces of the puzzle. But we must keep in mind that the complexity of the system is unprecedented. So we must be extra careful when making factual claims about cause and effect.

    We know a lot more about every part of the system today than we knew 30 years ago when the climate guys got it right. I am unwilling to say more knowledge only confuses us. That’s not what scientists say.

    And since the forecast is unclear, it is entirely rational to assume that the best course of action for our country (and others) is also unclear. Once again, to suggest otherwise would be dishonest.

    The forecast is clear. We might get a miracle, another Pinatubo-size eruption that staves off warming for three or four years, or a dramatic decrease in sunspot activity that may or may not be the cause of a decline in the rate of warming.

    I don’t think it’s wise to gamble the entire planet for short-term political gains for conservatives.

    As the rabidly non-partisan but accurate Congressional Research Service explains, we’re debating over degrees of disaster, not whether disaster will occur:

    Without radical changes globally from current policies and economic trajectories, experts uniformly expect that GHG emissions will continue to grow and lead to continued warming of the Earth’s climate. Experts disagree, however, on the timing, magnitude and patterns of future climate changes. In the absence of concerted climate change mitigation policies, for a wide range of plausible GHG scenarios to 2100, the IPCC projected “best guess” increases in global average temperatures from 1.8oC to 4.0oC (3.2oF to 7.2oF). Although these temperature changes may seem small, they compare to the current global, annual average temperature of around 14oC (57oF). While precipitation overall is expected to increase, its distribution may become more uneven: regions that now are dry are likely to get drier, while regions that now are wet, are likely to get wetter. Extreme precipitation and droughts are expected to become more frequent. Experts project that warming ocean waters will expand, and melting glaciers and ice sheets will further add to sea level rise. The Arctic Ocean could become ice free in summers within a few decades. Ocean salinity is expected to fall, and the Meridional Overturning Circulation in the Atlantic Ocean
    could slow, reducing ocean productivity and altering regional climates in both North America and Europe. The climate would continue changing for hundreds of years after GHG concentrations were stabilized, according to most models. There are also possibilities of abrupt changes in the state of the climate system, with unpredictable and potentially catastrophic consequences. Much concern is focused now, among scientists and economists, about the likelihoods and implications of exceeding such thresholds of abrupt change, sometimes called “tipping points.”

    Moderation said:

    Anyone who argues that cap and trade is the right thing to do but has no understanding of the Spanish experience, is expressing an ill-informed view.

    If your portrayal of Spain’s experience is correct, our experience with cap-and-trade in the U.S. is that it works like a charm. I am unwilling to say our success doesn’t count as experience because Spain couldn’t make it work. I think it’s important to note that, so far as I can find, only hard-core anti-science and anti-clean-environment guys cite Spain as instructive (see the Congressional Research Service report on H.R. 2454, for example — while no ringing endorsement, neither does it support a claim that Spain’s system is analogous, nor even instructive; nor does it support a claim that the plans won’t work). CRS is the most accurate source for any legislative action I’ve ever known, and I have no reason to think they’ve grown less careful or less accurate in the last 25 years.

    Even the EPAs recognition of a $100/year increase in electricity costs is significant, and could possibly underestimate the true cost. Plus the potential loss of jobs during a period of very high unemployment is concerning.

    Compared to what cost per year if Gore is only partly right? Collapse of one or two major fisheries is more significant than $100/year. We’re already paying about $1,000 per year added costs in insurance alone here in Texas for global warming. $100 a year sounds cheap. Ten times that amount, $1,000 a year, sounds like a fair trade to me.

    So let’s assume the costs of cleaning the air are underestimated by 90%: We’ll break even.

    Costs of doing nothing are much greater than the costs you complain about. You think someone else will pay them for you?

    Plus we must recognize that we are but one partner in the global community, and our actions may have only a small effect on gloabl conditions. Acheiving gloabl cooperation while respecting individual sovereignty is a delicate balance.

    One part of the global community, with 5% of the world’s population, using 25% of the world’s energy and putting out at times in the recent past 50% of the greenhouse gases — yes, we have dumped on the rest of the world for 100 years, and it’s time we own up to our global responsibilities in these regards.

    So while some may declare a clear and moral path forward, I remain skeptical.

    Surgery and chemo that probably will extend quality life, or nothing and ask for a miracle that has never happened and no one claims is likely to happen.

    That’s not really a choice, and I can’t figure out why people keep praying for miracles that don’t happen, when we can act now and get rid of a lot of the cancer. We may not effect a complete cure, but I think it’s immoral to do nothing at all.

  107. Moderation Says:

    I would like to know answers to questions like,

    Assuming all other factors stay constant, what will be the gloabl temperature in 2050 if CO2 emissions stay at their current level? What will be the temperature in 2050 if man-made CO2 emissions were zero?

    From what I have seen, no one can accurately make thess predictions. In fact it is a very complicated question. And in this light, it seems dishonest when people (Gore) suggest that “global catastrophe” could arrive in 10 years without “radical and immediate” action. This is why he is accused of “fear mongering.” It is true that anything “could” accur in 10 years, but to suggest that he is speaking for the entire scientific community is absurd.

    So I think it is appropriate for me to draw similarities between the misleading statements on both sides.

    It is honrable of you, Ed, to raise awareness of current environmental trends. These are important pieces of the puzzle. But we must keep in mind that the complexity of the system is unprecedented. So we must be extra careful when making factual claims about cause and effect.

    And since the forecast is unclear, it is entirely rational to assume that the best course of action for our country (and others) is also unclear. Once again, to suggest otherwise would be dishonest.

    Anyone who argues that cap and trade is the right thing to do but has no understanding of the Spanish experience, is expressing an ill-informed view. Even the EPAs recognition of a $100/year increase in electricity costs is significant, and could possibly underestimate the true cost. Plus the potential loss of jobs during a period of very high unemployment is concerning.

    Plus we must recognize that we are but one partner in the global community, and our actions may have only a small effect on gloabl conditions. Acheiving gloabl cooperation while respecting individual sovereignty is a delicate balance.

    So while some may declare a clear and moral path forward, I remain skeptical.

  108. Ed Darrell Says:

    My stance on CO2 has never changed. I always said it was a green house gas and that the level was the issue. I elaborated on this point in more than one post.

    I dont expect Ed to know this becuase he has failed to understand anything that I have said. I can appreciate his point of view, but disagree with it. However, he is not open-minded and cannot understand how anyone could reasonably disagree with him.

    I refuse to continue to reiterate what I have already repeated just because Ed is too lazy or ignorant to understand where I am coming from.

    And of course Ed would focus on the defintion of “pollutant” and not on the uncertainty associated with CO2 levels and climate conditions.

    By Ed’s reasoning, he pollutes everytime he takes a breath or everytime a polar bear breaths we could say they are polluting.

    You may be right. I have trouble keeping track of who posts on what — this ain’t my full time paycheck by any stretch.

    These yahoos who produced the movie, and who tell such shining and stinking whoppers about DDT and Rachel Carson and others, contest global warming on several grounds, including the foolish (to me) claim that CO2 can’t be a pollutant because it’s natural. My point on pollution is that pollution is too much of a substance in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    Our exhaling trace amounts of CO2 isn’t pollution, not until you get close to 30 people in a small room. In those circumstances, CO2 poisoning has been known to set in.

    Is that pollution by EPA’s figuring? I don’t think so.

    So if you wish to contest warming, do it on some rational basis. But don’t blame EPA, since they have a solid definition and a better plan to control greenhouse gases, and don’t make foolish claims like ‘CO2 can’t be harmful because it’s natural.’ Arsenic, sulfuric acid, and botulism are natural, too.

  109. Moderation Says:

    My stance on CO2 has never changed. I always said it was a green house gas and that the level was the issue. I elaborated on this point in more than one post.

    I dont expect Ed to know this becuase he has failed to understand anything that I have said. I can appreciate his point of view, but disagree with it. However, he is not open-minded and cannot understand how anyone could reasonably disagree with him.

    I refuse to continue to reiterate what I have already repeated just because Ed is too lazy or ignorant to understand where I am coming from.

    And of course Ed would focus on the defintion of “pollutant” and not on the uncertainty associated with CO2 levels and climate conditions.

    By Ed’s reasoning, he pollutes everytime he takes a breath or everytime a polar bear breaths we could say they are polluting.

    When I first joined this thread, I felt that Ed was knowledgable and reasonable on the issue and could contribute to my understanding. But know I see how stubborn and close-minded he really is. Furthermore, he fails to show his opposition the personal repsect that they deserve and has disgraced his own blog with childish behavoir.

    Hexamte – I have done research for the army and have family who are fighting in Iraq. I would never equate my contribution to those who volunteer to risk their lives so that we can live with peace and freedom at home. It is naive to say that the sacrifice of someone who packs parachutes is comparable to the person who uses the parachute to jump out of a plane and into a war zone.

  110. Ed Darrell Says:

    I said: Is that something you’re claiming, Hexmate Munchausen, or more plagiarism of somebody’s work you can’t explain and don’t understand?

    Hexmate offered no defense. He offered no link to suggest which of several dozen sites he swiped it from. He offered not a shred of argument to suggest he knows what it means. He offered no apology for stealing the work of others, even shoddy work.

    Instead, he tries to dodge the issue:

    Ed this seems to be your common cop out statement whenever there is an opposing point of view. It’s getting old Ed… old and empty. Just like you Ed, and your clanging around again. I can hear you rattling all the way over here.

    I’m not surprised that you can neither explain what your point was. I doubt you ever had one.

    Don’t you at least blush when you steal the work of others, though?

    As to hollow words: Facts count for something. “Facts are stubborn things,” Reagan was fond of quoting (he attributed it to John Adams). Your past service, if it was, does not justify current calumny, nor current claims that step into the Bizarro world. If you had any facts to back you up, you’d be talking about them. Which war did you serve in, Hex? It was no more honorable than those who served in peacetime, nor more honorable than those who saved your life. When faced with your current misdeeds, you claim a mantle of heroism for deeds in the past as you denigrate others. Anyone who reads scriptures and the stories of David understands that heroism in in the act, and not in the person.

  111. Ed Darrell Says:

    Ed you don’t have clue! The closest you ever came to a claymore is something you read somewhere about it. Same with donating blood or packing a parachute… you are nothing more than a bunch of hot air Ed and you are heating up the planet with it.

    The ultimate defense from a guy who plagiarizes a site that sells college papers to cheaters, who claims against chemistry and physics that CO2 doesn’t absorb energy at the frequencies it does, and who has been sucked in by hoaxes spun by people he idolizes.

    Hex, you oughtta sit back and let people who really know carry the ball for you.

    Review your high school chemistry here, and learn the facts about CO2. Or here, from the Department of Energy. Or here. Or here, at the University of Michigan. Or here, from the American Institute of Physics. Or any place that dispenses good, basic level science.

    You genuinely don’t think CO2 functions as a greenhouse gas?

    Wow! How many bridges do you own?

  112. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Is that something you’re claiming, Hexmate Munchausen, or more plagiarism of somebody’s work you can’t explain and don’t understand?”

    Ed this seems to be your common cop out statement whenever there is an opposing point of view. It’s getting old Ed… old and empty. Just like you Ed, and your clanging around again. I can hear you rattling all the way over here.

  113. Hexmate Says:

    Polar Ice
    *Antarctica’s represents 90% of the world’s ice and 70% of its fresh water. Antarctica’s sea ice volume was the largest ever recorded in 2008.
    *Antarctic sea ice extent in 2008 exceeded 1979 in ten of eleven months. Average ice extent was over 17% larger than in 1979. Sea ice thickness was also larger.
    *In October and early November 2008 the Arctic sea ice grew at the fastest rate ever recorded (43,804 square miles per day)
    *Arctic Sea ice is increasing at a record rate in 2008, early 2009
    *While it is true there has been generally less Summer Arctic Sea Ice in the past two decades this loss has been entirely offset by the growth of ice in the Antarctic. When you combine both poles, there has been no net reduction in global ice!
    *The volume of Antarctic ice in 2008 was averaging one million square kilometers more than normal. Summer ice melt was 40% below the average.
    *The 2008 Summer Arctic ice melt was 9% less than the record of 2007. 1,700,000 square miles of Arctic ice did not melt this year.
    *There is evidence that the Artic sea ice completely melted at least four times before man first walked the earth. Tropical turtle fossils have been found in the Arctic, proving this area was once much warmer than today.
    *On Oct 15, 2008 Arctic sea ice had grown 29% larger than in the previous year.
    *Arctic sea ice was 220,000 square miles larger in Nov ‘08 than Nov ‘07
    *Greenland’s temperatures today are cooler than those of the 1940’s NASA GISS
    *recent studies have shown that winds have a larger impact on polar ice formation than does temperature. Changes in winds and sea currents at both poles have caused an increase in ice formation, even though there has not been significant temperature variation in this period.
    *The Winter of 2007-2008, had most ice between Greenland and Canada in 15 years.

    *If all the floating ice in the world melted, what would happen to the sea level? Answer: The sea would not rise but could go lower, since ice has more volume than water. The melting of floating sea ice can not raise sea levels, no matter how much ice there is.
    *If land based ice, such as the 650,000 cubic kilometers of ice on Greenland melted the seas would rise considerably. But, in even the worse case, only one tenth of one percent of Greenland’s ice could possibly melt in the 21st century. It would 10,000 years or more to melt under the worst scenarios. (since most of Greenland is well below freezing much of the year, and most likely this melting would be interrupted by another Ice Age, don’t worry, Greenland’s ice won’t melt like some say it will).
    *When the glaciers of the ice age melted the sea levels only rose one meter per century. If Greenland was to melt at the same rate today sea levels would only rise 4 inches per century according to Prof Morner. There is no possibility of coastal flooding from global warming.
    *There was considerable ice melt in Greenland during the Medieval warm period (this is when the Vikings colonized it), yet sea level did not rise higher than the sea level found today! How do we know this? The Tower of London was built at sea level in 1150 AD, the sea is the same level today as depicted in paintings from the time it was built.
    *The warmest temperatures ever recorded in Greenland were in the 1930’s.
    *If all the land based ice melted, yes the seas would rise, but there would be about the same amount of livable land than there is today since Antarctica and Greenland would become habitable. (but don’t worry, this won’t happen).

  114. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Calculate the collapse of 60% of the world’s fishing industry. Calculate the impact of that collapse on beef, pork and poultry; calculate the impact of that on grains — and while you’re at it, scratch all the grain production from Texas, Kansas, Nebraska, Colorado, Iowa, Arkansas and Indiana (is there any chance that could be replaced by simply plowing up the Canadian Territories?).”

    Ed are writing that science fiction stuff again for that new movie you are going to produce? You are such a stich Ed!

  115. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “I think I begin to see why you don’t see much value in preserving the nation we’ve got, if you think it’s populated by parasites.”

    No Ed just you not anyone else – JUST YOU!

  116. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Bullshit. Nobody in their right mind could make a claim like that.”

    No Ed you are spewing out bullshit and now you are getting it back and you don’t like it. Cry me a river Ed!

  117. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “We’re still not buying. Our military works better without people who regard Americans as parasites. Take your retirement, and be glad there are others who defend America because it’s worth defending.”

    Ed this all about you isn’t Ed? You sit on your fat behind and shoot your mouth off at the expense of those who gave you that freedom do it. However you don’t take any responsibility for that so I am taking you to task for it. You can’t even spell freedom Ed much less know what it takes to preserve it. Your words are hollow Ed.

  118. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Civilians as parasites — like the parasite who packed your parachute, and the parasite who donated the blood for the plasma that saved your life when after you ran into that claymore . . .”

    Ed you don’t have clue! The closest you ever came to a claymore is something you read somewhere about it. Same with donating blood or packing a parachute… you are nothing more than a bunch of hot air Ed and you are heating up the planet with it.

  119. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Where’s the citation?

    CO2 is a greenhouse gas — the chemical and physical facts cannot be denied by sane people. Greenhouse gases cause temperatures to rise when there is too much of the stuff in the air.”

    Ed this all conjecture on your part. You don’t have any proof!

  120. Ed Darrell Says:

    No scientific forecasts of the changes in the Earth’s climate.

    Bullshit. Nobody in their right mind could make a claim like that. Insurance actuaries make Americans pay for climate change every month. Farmers and ranchers have had to adjust their crops, schedules, and everything else, because of climate change.

    How many legs does a calf have, if you call her tail a leg? Four. Calling her tail a leg, doesn’t make it a leg.

    Is that something you’re claiming, Hexmate Munchausen, or more plagiarism of somebody’s work you can’t explain and don’t understand?

  121. Ed Darrell Says:

    Ed I didn’t call you a parasite I identified you as a parasite which of course you obviously are. It’s okay Ed you are entitled to be a parasite. Now Ed you didn’t catch anything but if it makes you feel better you can claim anything you want to claim.

    Civilians as parasites — like the parasite who packed your parachute, and the parasite who donated the blood for the plasma that saved your life when after you ran into that claymore . . .

    We’re still not buying. Our military works better without people who regard Americans as parasites. Take your retirement, and be glad there are others who defend America because it’s worth defending.

    I think I begin to see why you don’t see much value in preserving the nation we’ve got, if you think it’s populated by parasites.

  122. Ed Darrell Says:

    . . . the geological record shows that life flourished for hundreds of millions of years with much higher CO2 levels and temperatures.

    Which era? Where’s the study? How much higher was the CO2? How much deforestation was there? What were the methane levels?

    Where’s the citation?

    CO2 is a greenhouse gas — the chemical and physical facts cannot be denied by sane people. Greenhouse gases cause temperatures to rise when there is too much of the stuff in the air.

    Suggesting that life would be sustainable with oceans 50 miles farther out than they are now is crazy talk.

    Suggesting that life would be sustainable with ocean levels five feet higher is, similarly, crazy talk.

    Oh, there would be humans. There would be cities. But there would be significant disasters beyond what anyone has yet imagined.

    Take the Aral Sea catastrophe, and multiply it by the factor of the coastline of the oceans divided by the coastline of the Aral Sea — it’s a SWAG figure, but close enough.

    Calculate the collapse of 60% of the world’s fishing industry. Calculate the impact of that collapse on beef, pork and poultry; calculate the impact of that on grains — and while you’re at it, scratch all the grain production from Texas, Kansas, Nebraska, Colorado, Iowa, Arkansas and Indiana (is there any chance that could be replaced by simply plowing up the Canadian Territories?).

    After the Chixculub incident, a few animals in North America survived, and after a few tens of thousands of years, more made it back.

    Why should we stand by and let that happen, if we can do anything at all to reduce it, or mitigate it, or stop it?

  123. Hexmate Says:

    No scientific forecasts of the changes in the Earth’s climate.
    Currently, the only forecasts are those based on the opinions of some scientists. Computer modeling was used to create scenarios (i.e., stories) to represent the scientists’ opinions about what might happen. The models were not intended as forecasting models (Trenberth 2007) and they have not been validated for that purpose. Since the publication of our paper, no one has provided evidence to refute our claim that there are no scientific forecasts to support global warming.
    We conducted an audit of the procedures described in the IPCC report and found that they clearly violated 72 scientific principles of forecasting (Green and Armstrong 2008). (No justification was provided for any of these violations.) For important forecasts, we can see no reason why any principle should be violated. We draw analogies to flying an aircraft or building a bridge or performing heart surgery—given the potential cost of errors, it is not permissible to violate principles

    [Editor's note: These words are not original here, and they have been repeated so often at crank science and hack political sites that it's difficult to figure out where they came from. If you have the copyright on 'em, defend away.]

  124. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “The facts are that CO2 levels are much higher than they should be to maintain our current planetary temperature, and humans put the stuff there.

    No Ed you see you are wrong again. There seems to be no shortage of theories about how rising CO2 levels will destroy the planet, yet the geological record shows that life flourished for hundreds of millions of years with much higher CO2 levels and temperatures.

  125. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Clever. I catch you plagiarizing a college theme cheat site, and you call me a “parasite.”

    You defended our nation? You once took an oath. I hope you’ll live up to it.”

    Ed I didn’t call you a parasite I identified you as a parasite which of course you obviously are. It’s okay Ed you are entitled to be a parasite. Now Ed you didn’t catch anything but if it makes you feel better you can claim anything you want to claim.

    Sure did defend our nation Ed – what did you do Ed? I have always lived up to my oath that is why you as a parasite get to live here.

  126. Ed Darrell Says:

    I just wanted be certain I had detected a parasite Ed so thanks for confirming your identification for me.

    Clever. I catch you plagiarizing a college theme cheat site, and you call me a “parasite.”

    As I noted earlier, we know now what we’re dealing with in Hexmate, but frankly, we don’t want to bother with the price. We’re not buying.

    You defended our nation? You once took an oath. I hope you’ll live up to it.

  127. Ed Darrell Says:

    Ed you completely missed my point on CO2. If I agree with you, and you are right, then I am right. Right?

    If you now believe what you most recently wrote, that levels of CO2 cause the problem (“the dose is the poison” or whatever the old saw is), then yes, you are now right. If you’re keeping your original position that CO2 is somehow magically protected from being recognized as a pollutant because it’s “natural,” or that CO2 is not a problem because it’s been higher back when there was no oxygen available, or somesuch, you’re still wrong.

    I hope you’ve come around. Have you?

    What I said is that the levels of CO2 are the issue not the existance of CO2.

    That’s correct. CO2 is too high. We have to have some for human life, we need some for plants to be able to photosynthesize, but those levels are generally far below the levels of what we have now. We need that much, but not so much that the greenhouse effect overheats the planet, which kills the plants and people who need lower amounts of it.

    Have you come around?

  128. Ed Darrell Says:

    In any case, continuing to call me names (I am boneheaded for my assesment of CO2, questioning my education etc.) shows a lack of character on your part.

    I called your error a boneheaded error.

    If it’s not a boneheaded error, defend it.

    By now I’m not sure what your complaint is. Are you claiming CO2 can’t be a greenhouse gas? Are you claiming we don’t have enough CO2? Are you claiming that a substance that also occurs naturally can’t be a pollutant?

    The facts are that CO2 levels are much higher than they should be to maintain our current planetary temperature, and humans put the stuff there. You’ve complained all around the issue — what’s your real beef?

  129. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “It’s only an important factor in noting that you don’t know beans about polar bears, and they can’t swim 200 miles, and maybe the Polar Bear Study Group who have dedicated much of their lives to the beasts may know a bit more than you do about them.”

    Oops Ed you lose again. Just another little factoid that you didn’t know. Oh my!

    Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2008 4:02:51 PM by Red Steel

    A polar bear that swam more than 200 miles through near-freezing water to reach Iceland was shot by local police – just in case it posed a danger to humans.

  130. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: ‘No, I’ve never been in a live war zone.

    But then, I’ve never plagiarized a professional cheater’s site before, either.

    At the little old university I used to teach at, used of such material was grounds for summary dismissal, no refund of tuition, no excuse of student loans, no chance of re-entry.”

    I just wanted be certain I had detected a parasite Ed so thanks for confirming your identification for me. At least I know what I am dealing with. We can tolerate parasites like you though, we have learned to accept that for what it is. Thanks for another one of your diversionary comments Ed it is so eloquently written. Of course we already know you have no credibility so it offers up nothing other than a feeble attempt on your part to respond. Ed you don’t know what you have done from one post to another so it only stands to reason that you have no idea what is going on. At least we do know you can’t handle any of the posts that are put up here, as evidenced by your responses.

  131. Moderation Says:

    Ed you completely missed my point on CO2. If I agree with you, and you are right, then I am right. Right?

    What I said is that the levels of CO2 are the issue not the existance of CO2.

    In any case, continuing to call me names (I am boneheaded for my assesment of CO2, questioning my education etc.) shows a lack of character on your part.

    This is becoming a pointless discussion, and in some ways I think you want it to be that way.

    Let me break it down for you:

    (1a) You put words in my mouth that completely misrepresent what I say.

    (1b) Then you mock and insult me for these words or stance which in no way represent my actaul argument.

    (2a) I post links which you do not read, claiming that the source is more important than the content.

    (2b) Then you blame me for not knowing where certain quotes come from.

    (3a) I write a few paragraphs detailing my point of view.

    (3b) You respond to a few of the sentences, ignore the rest, and claim I dont explain my stance.

    I am inclined to believe that you dont give your full attention to everything on this blog (I hope you have better things to do). But dont blame that on me.

    Ed, some people might call you an arrogant a**hole (in a bad way ;) ). But I tend to keep my punches above the belt. Try and show the same courtesy.

    Here is some interesting developments in the nuclear energy issue.

    http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/m/27252040/what-a-waste.htm#q=nuclear+waste

    Looks like Obama is ready to pull the plug on the storage facility after $13 billion has already been spent and increased taxes already paid. This could seriously affect our nations ability to produce nuclear energy.

  132. Ed Darrell Says:

    As for the impacts of CO2 being “hard science” I will say that yes it is a green house gas. But green house gases are a natural part of the atmosphere. Anyone who objects to CO2 is the atmosphere is a moron. We would all die if this was the case. So as I said before (I am growing tired of repeating myself) the existence of CO2 is not the problem, it is the level of CO2 that is a concern. I would disagree with anyone who uses the phrase “CO2 is a pollutant.” But this is really an issue of semantics. I will get to the real issue shortly.

    Anyone who doesn’t object to too much CO2 in the atmosphere is a patsy. Natural substances can be poisonous, and any substance in too great a concentration, or in the wrong place, can be deadly. Your position on CO2 is analogous to your claiming that we should shut down the Red Cross Water Safety program, because after all, water is essential to life, so claims that people drown are foolish and damaging.

    CO2 in too great a concentration is polluting. Too great a concentration is rather the definition of pollutant in atmospheric science.

    Moreover, if you’ll take a look at EPA’s proposed rules to control greenhouse gases, you’ll be pleasantly surprised.

    CO2 is not beneficial everywhere, all the time. EPA’s rules on CO2 are wise and sound, and generic claims that “CO2 can’t be a problem because it’s natural” demonstrate a lack of understanding about chemistry, physics and law — and a stubborness that is more rear end of the mule than front end.

  133. Ed Darrell Says:

    He also writes, “ah I spoke to soon. You know less than nothing…” when in fact he is typing and can change the words before he posts.

    Said when you cited the Heartland Institute, a group famous among denialist kooks for being hard-headedly wrong.

    The problem there was your source. Their stuff will suck the brains right out of your head — but you know that, if you’ve read their reports on physics, you being a physics graduate student and all. Right?

    Don’t blame me for assaulting you when I am indicting your source, please. If you won’t defend the source, don’t cite ‘em, or apologize for having done so.

  134. Ed Darrell Says:

    I hope he showed better manners to his students. His arrogance is not something that I would respect in a classroom.

    When I have students who stick to boneheaded claims and do not make their case clearly, they get the same response.

    Did you want a less heated discussion? Come in with less heat. Do you want detailed responses on a point? Detail what your argument is that you want a response to, don’t just point me to an encyclopedia and claim I err. If you do, I’m liable to show you your error from that encyclopedia, with all the disrespect you mustered in your question.

    Fair?

  135. Ed Darrell Says:

    In this light, it is not surprising that he would attack the links I post as “propoganda” but fail to address specific comments in the links that are made by informed scientists (like the one from MIT).

    So, when you make a boneheaded claim about the chemistry of CO2, it’s an adequate response for me to simply link to the periodic table of elementss?

    What did who from MIT say that you think is significant and deserves a response? You throw up a link, often to a trash site, and then you claim to have made all of those arguments, no matter what they are? I can’t read your mind. You shouldn’t expect me to pull magic tricks out.

    Furthermore, he confuses me with Hexmate with regards to arguments about polar bears (yes Ed it was Hexmate who was arguing about polar bears, so maybe you should substitute your own apology for the accusation, but I wont hold my breath) and completely misses the bigger point that I tried to make.

    My apologies for the confusion. You claimed I spent to much time talking polar bears, when all I did was correct an error. I see how you are! You don’t want any corrections of errors by anyone!

    Too bad. That’s not me, that’s not this blog.

    You’re right, I missed that you had a bigger point. Maybe you could state that point succinctly.

  136. Moderation Says:

    There is really very little purpose to arguing with Ed on his blog. He fails to realize that he represents a perspective, as we all do, and that his perspective is not automatically superior to other perspectives held by scientists who would disagree with his conclusions.

    In this light, it is not surprising that he would attack the links I post as “propoganda” but fail to address specific comments in the links that are made by informed scientists (like the one from MIT).

    Furthermore, he confuses me with Hexmate with regards to arguments about polar bears (yes Ed it was Hexmate who was arguing about polar bears, so maybe you should substitute your own apology for the accusation, but I wont hold my breath) and completely misses the bigger point that I tried to make.

    He also fails to realize that I may actaully understand that back door insults like “you display only moderate honesty and integrity” (even with a lowercase M! it is a negative statement) or “you know less than nothing about this subject” (atleast I know that I dont know everything) or “youve lost every point so far” (in Ed’s mind hes never wrong) is still an insult and not part of productive discussion. I hope he showed better manners to his students. His arrogance is not something that I would respect in a classroom.

    He also writes, “ah I spoke to soon. You know less than nothing…” when in fact he is typing and can change the words before he posts. Instead he chooses to use phrases that he imagines would be embarassing for me. A sign of a lack of restrain and even a lack of maturity in my eyes.

    The fact is that I attend the physics graduate school program at a university that specializes in atmospheric science. But I imagine that Ed can find someway to hold this against me or prove my ignorance, instead of giving me any credibilty.

    As for the impacts of CO2 being “hard science” I will say that yes it is a green house gas. But green house gases are a natural part of the atmosphere. Anyone who objects to CO2 is the atmosphere is a moron. We would all die if this was the case. So as I said before (I am growing tired of repeating myself) the existence of CO2 is not the problem, it is the level of CO2 that is a concern. I would disagree with anyone who uses the phrase “CO2 is a pollutant.” But this is really an issue of semantics. I will get to the real issue shortly.

    With regards to the economic impact, I would assume Ed is not an economic expert and he should reread (or just read) the link that I posted which contains these quotes,

    “sweeping climate regulations threaten the economy. Regulation of CO2 could become the most far-reaching regulatory grab in the history of EPA”

    ““The potential economic damage to an already-fragile economy is tremendous”

    Or maybe Ed could study how cap and trade affected Spain’s aconomic situation. I mentioned this a week or more ago but havnt seen any specific response to it yet. (Ed says, “if I didnt respond to it I didnt think it deserved a response.”) So I may assume that a real life example of cap and trade isnt relevant?

    Now while I have spent energy on the above comments, they are really only to defend my character and not part of an interesting debate.

    The real issue (as Ed is beginning to recognize) concerns the most appropriate thing to do now and in the future. We could focus specifically on CO2 emissions since this is Al Gore’s main talking point.

    The fact is that we dont know what level of CO2 is unacceptable. This is why I dont call it “hard science.” With hard sceince you could say “at this level we will have these conditions.” If I am mistaken, please describe the exact relationship between the conditions and levels for me (I am open to persuasion). But for the moment lets move forward with the assumption that it doesnt fit my defintion of “hard science.” (since I am a scientist this seems like a reasonable course.)

    So we dont know exactly how CO2 will affect temperatures (sepcific levels coresponding to specific global conditions) and we dont know how other factors such as the sun will behave in the future (this comment about the sun is according to Ed’s reference). What we do know is that CO2 levels are rising due to human activity and that this tends to increase the temperature.

    SO we have a situation of uncertainty. This is where philisophical differences play a role.

    Some people will argue that there is a “tipping point.” More precisely they speculate about such a point. They are saying that the response will be nonlinear in the sense that instead of gradual decay, we will have a catastrophic decline (fall off the cliff). I call this the “meteor theory.” By the time it arrives we are all doomed. Although we dont know when or where this point occurs, these people argue that we must make immediate and radical changes. This would be ok with me if there alternate technologhy had been developed to the point where we could make a smooth transition, but this is not the case. So instead of enacting policies that will increase the cost of electricity and lose jobs, I suggest we focus on developing these new technologies and work on a plan of transition that is most practical. Because there is also uncertainty in the progress of technology. We could potentially lose a decade of prosperity because we were not patient enough to wait for the right solutions.

    There is also the issue of the global community. There is no guarantee that countires like China will adopt the same policies as us, or that they we honor commitments to policy. So we risk adpoting policies that put us at an economic disadvantage with the rest of the world and also have little impact on gloabl conditions assuming other countries continue to pollute.

    On the other hand, if we become the gloabl experts on clean energy, we are in a position to improve our economic situation and to have a large impact on global conditions.

    This is an approach that I believe is reasonable.

    Let me also provide a quote here since Ed is fond of them.

    “Be the change you want to see in the world.” – Mahatma Gandhi

    So anyone who claims to be a environmental activist with moral fortitude should look first into the mirror before poiting their finger at others. Sometimes I feel that people are not willing to make the sacrifice unless others do the same. But somehow they claim that they are taking a moral stance. It is disingenuous.

  137. Brett Says:

    Ed:

    Are you still at it trying to defend Man Made Global Warming. It is very amusing that as diligent and sure as you think you are, you fail to see that so many people have made valid points against APGW.

    Lets look at how ridiculous the IPCC is when they talk about CO2. Man emits emits about 35 billion tons of CO2 worldwide each year. The IPCC claims 1 Trillion tons of CO2 equates to 1 degree F increase in temperature.

    So we would have to stop all CO2 production for about 30 years just to stop the Planet from increasing 1 degree F. Of course the IPCC claims the temperature will rise 6 degrees. Which means at least 200 years of living in the stone age to stop APGW.

    Nevermind that we are going to have a very difficult time preventing volcanos from dumping huge amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. Maybe we should pass a law and ban volcanos.

    The only Inconvenient Truth that Al Gore’s claims are completely wrong and only aimed at making lots of money for himself and his carbon credit corporations.

    I know ED, you will undoubtedly have some sort of retort. Fact is you are wrong, wrong, wrong. Face it, APGW is a dying cause and the tide has shifted toward real science and the truth, APGW does not exist.

  138. Ed Darrell Says:

    Ed says, “Everything in moderation, except honesty and knowledge, and virtue, please.”

    What do you mean by this Ed? because it seems like a personal attack on my honesty, knowledge, and virtue. Although I have stated respect for your knowledge on global warming issues, I do not respect your personal insults.

    If I’d meant it as an insult, I’d have capitalize “Moderation.” As it is, it’s a double or triple entendre, based off the advice of the Greek philosophers: “Everything, in moderation.”

    I regret that you took it as an insult, and not as an embarrassing (to you) revelation. Now you’ll dig your heels in and keep it up, no matter how ignorant and unvirtuous it is, I’m sure.

    I’d ask you to stick to the facts, but you’ll be insulted instead of noticing that you’re not posting any facts.

    I was making the simple point that on your blog you spend too much time arguing about how far a polar bear can swim. Like somehow this is an important factor when it comes to climate change.

    You were the one who argued that polar bears can swim 200 miles without a sweat. I regret that you missed the point: You were wrong, and you owe polar bears and every Tenderfoot Scout many apologies.

    It’s only an important factor in noting that you don’t know beans about polar bears, and they can’t swim 200 miles, and maybe the Polar Bear Study Group who have dedicated much of their lives to the beasts may know a bit more than you do about them.

    Maybe you think it is, by then I would suggest that you are missing the bigger picture. In any case, you seem to be intent on not conceding a single point to your “opposition.” (This is a sign of someone who worries too much about “scoring points” and is not totally focused on the truth) If a polar bear could swim 3000 miles, I dont see how that would change the science of global warming or how it should affect the policies.

    I’ll concede any point you win. You’ve lost ‘em all so far.

    Maybe if these researchers cared so much about polar bears, they would help them survive instead of watching them die.

    The music afficianado met Fritz Kreisler backstage, and gushed, “Oh, Mr. Kreisler! I’d give my life to play the violin like you do!” Kreisler smiled, and said, “Madame, I have given my life to play the violin the way I do.”

    Go spend some time with the Polar Bear Study Group. You might see something of interest.
    http://pbsg.npolar.no/en/issues/threats/climate-change.html

    They have dedicated their lives to getting the science right about the polar bear.

    Ed says, “What part of EPA’s rule do you object to?”

    Well if you read what I have already written and dont automatically assume that I am an idiot you will realize what I object to: namely heavy regulation of CO2 emissions that will most likely raise the cost of electricity for every single American.

    I ask because when I looked at the rule, I didn’t see any heavy regulation of CO2. The cost-effect studies show modest increases in cost.

    So should I be surprised that you don’t refer to the rules and make any specific complaint?

    How will the rules raise the cost of electricity for everyone? What is the “heavy regulation” that you protest?

    I also object to the EPA suggesting that the impact of CO2 emissions is “hard science” as Ed might say.

    So, you deny the physical properties of CO2 to act as a greenhouse’s glass panes? On what science do you base that absurd and exactly wrong claim?

    Or is there another claim?

    Or do you know anything at all about the science of the atmosphere?

    http://www.heartland.org/publications/environment%20climate/article/25502/EPA_Rules_CO2_a_Danger_Prepares_to_Regulate.html

    Ah, I spoke to soon. You know less than nothing about the air — you pay attention to the Heartland Institute’s public relations campaign for air pollution. May God save us.

    The article contains this quote,

    “Assertions that the science is settled and that climate impacts will be severe are used to justify an extreme set of policy responses,” Kueter added. “An objective review of the available information leads instead to a conclusion that significant unknowns and uncertainties remain in our understanding of the climate system and what the potential impact of change might be.”

    which is a summary of what I have been saying for many days now. I previously posted a quote by an MIT scientist who basically said the same thing.

    There are signficant unknowns, but they pale beside what we know. We know the climate is warming, exactly in lock-step with the emissions of greenhouse gases including CO2 from human endeavors. We don’t know for certain where the doomsday point-of-no-return is, and we don’t know how quickly civilization will collapse when we pass it.

    I think it’s unwise to rocket past that point just for the sake of research.

  139. Moderation Says:

    Ed says, “Everything in moderation, except honesty and knowledge, and virtue, please.”

    What do you mean by this Ed? because it seems like a personal attack on my honesty, knowledge, and virtue. Although I have stated respect for your knowledge on global warming issues, I do not respect your personal insults.

    I was making the simple point that on your blog you spend too much time arguing about how far a polar bear can swim. Like somehow this is an important factor when it comes to climate change. Maybe you think it is, by then I would suggest that you are missing the bigger picture. In any case, you seem to be intent on not conceding a single point to your “opposition.” (This is a sign of someone who worries too much about “scoring points” and is not totally focused on the truth) If a polar bear could swim 3000 miles, I dont see how that would change the science of global warming or how it should affect the policies.

    Maybe if these researchers cared so much about polar bears, they would help them survive instead of watching them die.

    Ed says, “What part of EPA’s rule do you object to?”

    Well if you read what I have already written and dont automatically assume that I am an idiot you will realize what I object to: namely heavy regulation of CO2 emissions that will most likely raise the cost of electricity for every single American.

    I also object to the EPA suggesting that the impact of CO2 emissions is “hard science” as Ed might say.

    http://www.heartland.org/publications/environment%20climate/article/25502/EPA_Rules_CO2_a_Danger_Prepares_to_Regulate.html

    The article contains this quote,

    “Assertions that the science is settled and that climate impacts will be severe are used to justify an extreme set of policy responses,” Kueter added. “An objective review of the available information leads instead to a conclusion that significant unknowns and uncertainties remain in our understanding of the climate system and what the potential impact of change might be.”

    which is a summary of what I have been saying for many days now. I previously posted a quote by an MIT scientist who basically said the same thing.

  140. Ed Darrell Says:

    We cannot of course categorically label CO2 as pollution. Plants need CO2 to live and mammals generate CO2 with every breath.

    What part of EPA’s rule do you object to?

  141. Ed Darrell Says:

    . . . (how far can a polar bear swim?) and more was spent on the big picture.

    I’d be inclined to agree — except, what fault can we really find with the report of the Polar Bear Study Group? It’s a group dedicated to studying polar bears, from the five nations that have polar bears living within their national boundaries, some of which states favor hunting the bears heavily and some of which favor halting all hunting. The group has been working the issue for about 30 years, longer than any other group, with the biggest collection of active polar bear researchers anywhere.

    And yet, when this group notes what is known, the “climate change skeptics” ridicule the group, claim they don’t know their own area of expertise, and ask us to ignore their findings until “further research is done.”

    Everything in moderation, except honesty and knowledge, and virtue, please.

  142. Moderation Says:

    Ed seems to have a lot of experience and knowledge on this subject. And I would like to acknowledge that for what its worth. Often these types of discussions degenerate into personal attacks and I see examples of that from both sides here.

    My position on global warming is fairly clear. It is not a fixed position, but is flexible and can adjust to new events and new understanding of complicated systems. I agree with thousands of intelligent and informed scientists who beleive that the current evidence and analysis of that evidence is not sufficient to justify “emergency solutions to avoid catastrophe” – Al Gore. I also believe that I am being reasonable when I say that the rhetoric that is used to push the global warming agenda is often misleading and distasteful. Some will use pictures of dying polar bears or children swimming in waste to awaken the emotional response in people. Some will use fear tactics such as “the sky is falling” approach or “catastrophe is near”.

    It is no secret that a crisis is often generated or exaggerated in order to pass legislation. Look at the Patriot Act or this years Healthcare bill. Instead of asking “what is the best thing to do”, we are told that drastic and immediate action is the only answer and that nothing we do can be worse than doing nothing.

    During this years Olympic bid for the 2016 games, the prime minister of Japan was promoting his city by declaring a “green” approach to the event. He also insisted that 2016 would be the last Olympics if global warming isnt taken more seriously (a very irresponsible remark from such a powerful person.) One country in Europe began printing the carbon footprint of food items on boxes and menus. They recommended choosing chicken over beef. They also admit that the footprint can vary by an order of magnitude depending on specifics (something that was not accounted for on their scale.) In Al Gore’s speech he says that the global warming cause is a moral obligation that is comparable to fighting the Nazi’s during WWII. In this light, we are not only being “stupid” but also “immoral” by questioning the global warming agenda. Instead of changing minds, resentment is created.

    We cannot of course categorically label CO2 as pollution. Plants need CO2 to live and mammals generate CO2 with every breath. The environment needs a balance of CO2 with other stuff to be healthy. The CO2 that is produced by humans has greatly increased and therefore the levels in the atmosphere have also increased. But I dont see this as a meteor that is approaching the earth and is about to end life as we know it. CO2 levels need to be measured and managed to avoid creating a substantial imbalance. I dont see cap and trade as being the best response to the issue. I dont see how associating arbitrary costs with the production of CO2 is “fair” or justifiable at this point. And considering the economy, it will be hard to manufacture much support for the legislation from moderate democrats.

    In the meantime, everyone would be better off if the less energy was spent on propoganda and more was spent or research and development. If less time was spent on details (how far can a polar bear swim?) and more was spent on the big picture. We would be better off if people did more to change their personal life styles and less to interfere with other peoples life styles. We need more innovation and less legislation. In the end, the best technology will make it to the marketplace. The cheapest and most efficient solutions will rise to the top.

  143. Ed Darrell Says:

    No, I’ve never been in a live war zone.

    But then, I’ve never plagiarized a professional cheater’s site before, either.

    At the little old university I used to teach at, use of such material by a student, even, was grounds for summary dismissal, no refund of tuition, no excuse of student loans, no chance of re-entry.

    Now we know what your occupation is, Hexmate. We are not bothering to haggle the price.

  144. Ed Darrell Says:

    Additionally, name-calling is often applied to naturally occurring molecules in nature; carbon dioxide is regularly labeled as a pollutant- something that is essential for plant life and, subsequently, all life.

    You call it namecalling, a polemical, political label, suggesting you think there is something wrong with that analysis.

    The rest of us call it heads up science, and note that it’s an accurate label.

    Funny that you implicitly complain about namecalling as somehow a shady tactic, as you do it.

  145. Hexmate Says:

    Ed have you ever sat in a foxhole, a bunker, a watch tower, a war zone? I have.

  146. Hexmate Says:

    Moderation this is the primary mission of Ed and his minions.

    Introduction:
    Several hypotheses have emerged to explain the global warming phenomenon. Among these theories, Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) has emerged as the leading theory, which deduces that the Earth is warming due to human activity and that as a result humans will eventually destroy the planet. The AGW theory has permeated nearly every facet of modern society. Over the past few decades, scientists, politicians, marketers, and Earth lovers alike, for various reasons, have employed propaganda techniques to promote the Anthropogenic Global Warming theory; in the process, they proactively sought to curtail the exposure of the truth in order to profit from people’s apprehension of global warming.
    Fears of the Earth’s rising temperature are based on global temperature averages over the past 100 years, with special interest placed on the past decade. During the mid 1800’s, the average surface temperature varied but, was close to -.4 °C. Contrasting the older temperatures with today’s average of .4°C, a difference of nearly .8° C, has alarmed many and caused others to investigate the reasons for the perceived increase in temperature.
    Human activity has borne the bulk of the blame for the increased temperatures. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), established by the United Nations to investigate the impact human activity has on the global climate, while recognizing other factors that influence the climate, attributes the majority of global warming to human activity.1 Human activity includes land clearing, industrial emissions and transportation emissions, which increase greenhouse gasses and aerosols. The IPCC, the chief promoter of AGW, identified that the primary cause of increased temperatures worldwide is human-related carbon dioxide emissions from fossil burning fuels.
    The IPCC recently published dire worldwide predictions based on their global warming calculations. While supporters of the AGW Theory often quote other sources, the IPCC is generally recognized as the most authoritative body on the subject. Their report concludes that the increasing global temperatures will cause ocean levels to rise and the water to become more acidic; the confident estimates predict that precipitation, wind, and ice will change as well- although there is no consensus on their magnitude.2 The IPCC deftly presents all of the calculations, though nearly each one contains a caveat explaining that the models employed are lacking significant data or the phenomenon is too complex to accurately model.

    Propaganda Techniques:
    Scholars have written volumes explaining the techniques and methodology of propagandists for hundreds of years. To propagandize, one need only read a how-to manual to learn the concepts of an effectively run propaganda campaign. Propaganda techniques include appealing to fear, appealing to authority, name-calling, transference, bandwagoning, obtaining disapproval, over simplification, utilizing virtue words, employing faulty logic and more. AGW proponents utilize all of these methods to further their goals, which will be discussed later.
    Appealing to fear is perhaps the strongest technique used by propagandists. Hitler’s Propaganda Minister, Goebbels exploited and motivated the German population by striking fear into them. Likewise, propagandists have attempted to use the fear factor to get the media’s attention and gain front-page real estate. Headlines such as “Scientists fear global warming higher than expected” are designed to make the audience cringe with fear when they read that earth’s average temperature could rise by 7.8°C by 2300 with polar ice caps melting and seas rising by seven meters.3 Nearly every report concerning global warming is laced with calamitous consequences if something is not done soon. This type of propaganda is effective in catching readers’ attention and motivating them to some action.
    In the early stages of AGW propaganda, global warming fears dominated public consciousness. Later, beginning in 1998, the Earth began to cool while atmospheric CARBON DIOXIDE continued to rise in complete contradiction to the theory. As a result, the phraseology of AGW alarmists became “climate change” so that any variation in the Earth’s climate could then be attributed to human activities.4 The problems with the scare tactic is that eventually people become immune to the warnings, prompting the AGW propaganda engine to produce more extreme warnings. John Ritch, director general of the World Nuclear Association, provided an excellent example of upping the fear factor; in June 2007, “Greenhouse gas emissions, if continued at the present massive scale, will yield consequences that are – quite literally – apocalyptic. … If these predictions hold true, the combined effect would be the death of not just millions but of billions of people- and the destruction of much of civilization on all continents.”5 At some point, propagandists will be forced to rely on other tools of propaganda- as appealing to fear will eventually lose effectiveness.
    AGW propagandists do not rely solely on fear to influence the masses however; an appeal to authority is a common technique. By invoking the infallible name of science, advocates can point to others who have advanced degrees and use scientific jargon to impress and beguile the masses. Because the average citizen does not have the time or resources to conduct her own study of the warming phenomenon, she is forced to rely on the opinions of those scientific authorities. Who on their own can readily cite hard numbers and create computer models to evaluate and project the future? Appealing to authority alleviates the average citizen of this academic burden.
    Authoritative sources include dictionaries, which have become a tool of the propagandist. American Heritage Science Dictionary gives the following definition for global warming:
    An increase in the average temperature of the Earth’s atmosphere, especially a sustained increase great enough to cause changes in the global climate. The Earth has experienced numerous episodes of global warming through its history, and currently appears to be undergoing such warming. The present warming is generally attributed to an increase in the greenhouse effect, brought about by increased levels of greenhouse gases, largely due to the effects of human industry and agriculture. Expected long-term effects of current global warming are rising sea levels, flooding, melting of polar ice caps and glaciers, fluctuations in temperature and precipitation, more frequent and stronger El Niños and La Niñas, drought, heat waves, and forest fires.6

    Authoritative sources employ several other types of propaganda techniques, many of which overlap. The above appeal to authority includes the tactic of fear and faulty logic- using seemingly contradicting predictions concurrently; how can a worldwide drought simultaneously be accompanied by flooding and melting of land-locked glaciers? Contradictory statements by some authoritative sources seek to lend credibility to the AGW argument by oversimplifying the theory, yet making it confusing enough for the average citizen to leave in the hands of “experts”.
    Name-calling is usually reserved for politically minded individuals and those audiences predisposed to agree with the one presenting the message. Words such as “right wing” or “ultra conservative” contain such a built-in prejudice, that when an author utilizes them to describe an opponent of AGW, the same prejudices are transferred to that individual- regardless of the opponent’s political leanings. Name-calling will often be invoked attacking the person, rather than the idea being presented. Kevin Trenberth, a prominent climate researcher became frustrated during a conference on Global Warming when challenged by Colorado State University’s William Gray, one of the nation’s preeminent hurricane forecasters and said that Dr. Gray is not a credible scientist, “Not any more. He was at one time, but he’s not any more”.7 Name-calling attempts to discredit individuals and the ideas they represent- is unprofessional, and unfortunately, individuals on both sides of the AGW theory engage in it.

    Additionally, name-calling is often applied to naturally occurring molecules in nature; carbon dioxide is regularly labeled as a pollutant- something that is essential for plant life and, subsequently, all life. Labeling those who disagree with AGW as less than educated or ignorant stifles scientific thought and academic deliberation, favoring the pro-AGW theorists. Further, attempting to categorize carbon dioxide as a pollutant wrongly demonizes nearly every oxygen breathing carbon dioxide emitting organism, but primarily places the blame on humans- who release CARBON DIOXIDE in the air when burning fossil fuels. Additionally, placing carbon-dioxide in the category of pollutant emphasizes, as many AGW supporters do, that it is a major green house gas, which it is not. Water vapor, the primary greenhouse gas, may soon be targeted and placed on the list of pollutants.
    Proponents of AGW engage in a propaganda technique known as “transfer.” Transfer occurs when the positive or negative traits of one thing or person are associated with that of another. For example, when the supporter of AGW addresses a television audience, he wears a white lab coat, whether or not he works in a lab, because people associate white lab coats with scientists and truth untainted. Conversely, when interviewing a skeptic of AGW, the deft AGW reporter will find a suitable candidate among a Texas oil town or a steel worker in Detroit. In each case, the viewer will associate a negative or positive image of the person speaking with what he or she is presenting.
    A vivid illustration of transfer is the attack by Ben Stewart of Greenpeace on the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), the primary think tank that opposes the AGW theory. Stewart says, “The AEI is more than just a think tank, it functions as the Bush administration’s intellectual Cosa Nostra”.8 By equating the AEI to the Mafia, Ben Stewart attempts to transfer the negative feelings and images of the terrorist/criminal organization to that of the AEI and President Bush- simultaneously, he engages in name-calling to discredit the AEI. Mr. Stewart does not attack the concepts presented by AEI or any of the rational behind their objections to AGW, he attacks those funding the organization and appeals to outside organizations predisposed to bias.
    Bandwagoning and polarization go hand in hand. The propagandist will attempt to simplify the issue, presenting only two extreme options: you can either pollute, drive big SUV’s, burn coal and waste energy or you can join the eco-friendly, caring people who want to preserve the Earth for future generations- which is what every other responsible person is doing. These techniques are highly effective because while one may not completely agree with what is presented, it is easier to go along with what everyone else is doing- thousands of scientists and millions of other people can’t be wrong.

    Bandwagoning is invoked regularly when discussing the Kyoto Protocol. Propagandists will posture that every other nation has agreed to the Protocol except for the United States. The manipulator will then polarize the argument, presenting America as the reckless polluting capitalist giant, which has excluded itself from the responsible nations of the world. Nevertheless, even those “responsible” nations recognize the implications of the Kyoto Protocol. Margot Wallstrom, the European Union’s commissioner for the environment and global warming said, “[the Kyoto Protocol] is not a simple environmental issue where you can say it is an issue where scientists are not unanimous. This is about international relations; this is about economy, about trying to create a level playing field for big businesses throughout the world. You have to understand what is at stake and that is why it is serious.”9 The EU knows that if the US agreed to the protocol, it would disadvantage the US economically. The technique of bandwagoning and polarizing the issue can only be effective among those less informed masses; those who fully understand the subject comprehend the myriad issues and consequences of such actions.

    Propagandists capitalize on the public’s disapproval of big industry and the distrust of oil companies. Several websites posit that oil companies fund the bulk of the research disputing AGW through its primary opponent, AEI.10 Whether this is true or not, it implies that: because oil companies and big industry cannot be trusted, neither can the results of their research. Despite the fact that AEI scholars and fellows are required to disclose in their published work any affiliations they may have with organizations with a direct interest in the subject of that work, detractors continually cast doubt on the work of their scientists and scholars.11 In fact, a popular website declares the AEI as “an extremely influential, pro-business right-wing think tank … [which] promotes the advancement of free enterprise capitalism, and succeeds in placing its people in influential governmental positions. It is the center base for many neo-conservatives.”12
    Direct attacks on this organization are representative of a propagandistic technique to obtain disapproval. In other words, if group X (which the audience believes is inherently bad) likes or approves of something, then that something must be wrong or bad.
    Over-simplification of the issue is a pitfall in which nearly every media outlet falls. The issues and contributing factors surrounding global warming are so numerous that even the scientists who created the models for the IPCC admit that there is simply not enough computer power to account for all the variables affecting the global warming phenomenon.13 To address even the major factors in a scientific setting requires multiple volumes and numerous charts and data; presenting the findings to the average citizen, in terms he can understand, demands simplification. The propagandist has succeeded in convincing the typical American that consuming energy and driving cars, cause global warming; the result of which is that the Earth is getting hotter and will eventually result in the annihilation of humanity.
    Because the argument for AGW has been oversimplified, the ordinary citizen believes that she understands the concept and the factors related to it. Buzz words such as deforestation, O-zone, rising ocean levels, shrinking ice caps, pollution, over population and death become intermingled and blurred; the simpler the idea, the easier it is to remember. Never mind the complex concepts of global forcing, the fact that Antarctica is actually getting colder or that the Earth is continuously either warming or cooling- and has been for millennia, or that the oceans can rise and shrink simultaneously; the average person cannot and will not devote the time and energy required to pursue an advanced degree or dedicate the time required to understand the complex issues surrounding the AGW theory. Simplifying the message and presenting the idea in terms that most can understand help to further the AGW propagandist’s agenda.
    Expert and novice propagandists have long wielded virtue words and slogans. Virtue words impart value to the idea to which they are associated. For example, when considering the abortion slogans, “pro-choice” sounds so much more positive and human rights oriented than “anti-life” which carries a negative connotation. Likewise, AGW propagandists have chosen slogans that are endearing and hard to argue against. Phrases such as “Save Our Earth” imply the Earth is in need of saving and, that we can and should do something to save it. Who could argue the opposite phrase “destroy our planet”? This slogan draws on the bandwagon technique, implying that the individual needs to join others in saving “our” planet.
    Other virtue words commonly used by proponents for AGW include science, Mother Earth, health, and civilization. Such words evoke emotion and their usage prompts actions to protect and defend the ideas to which they are attached. Pro AGW articles that claim science predicts global warming will end civilization as we know it, endanger our health and destroy Mother Earth are designed to stir up feelings of fear, one of the previously discussed propaganda techniques.14 There is literally no end to the list of virtue words; a propagandist can harness any word that has an intense or personal meaning to someone to elicit a thought or response from his audience.
    AGW supporters regularly incorporate faulty logic into arguments when attempting to explain something for which there are not yet answers or reasonable explanations. Just because B chronologically follows A, it does not mean that A causes B. The AGW adherent will claim that the Earth’s temperature is rising and so is the carbon dioxide levels from humans, illogically concluding that this means human carbon dioxide emissions are causing the temperature to raise. Another form of faulty logic is an accident resulting from over simplification. While exploring alternative fuels, several scientists have discovered that palm oil burns cleaner than petroleum. AGW supporters jumped on this idea and championed the research to modify vehicle engines that will burn palm oil, a readily renewable resource. Little did they know the issue was more complicated than simply burning a new fuel; harvesting palm oil is a major cause of rain forest deforestation and is associated with the widespread use of chemicals, which damage health and pollute the environment.15 While honest mistakes are sometimes made, good intentions are not enough to justify illogical actions.

    An AGW defender may argue from ignorance; claiming that an idea is accurate simply because it has not been proven false. The AGW propagandist might suppose, “I don’t know what this means, but it must be bad because the unknown is frightening.” Further, circular reasoning is employed when campaigning for decreased emissions of pollutants. Example: An AGW champion posits that all pollutants that increase green house gases must be regulated. When asked what pollutants she is concerned about, she responds, “the ones that cause increased green house gases.” There are many other types of faulty logic, all of which have been employed in the argument for AGW.

    The Reasons for AGW Propaganda:

    The propaganda techniques discussed are tactical methods to convince the world population that humans are the primary cause of global warming. The strategic goal, however, is to incorporate as many of these methods into the daily life of the average citizen, so that he accepts the theory as fact. From new articles, t-shirts, laundry detergent, political speeches, movies, and appliances to car insurance commercials, AGW has permeated modern society to the point where there is no escape. A discussion of the benefits that AGW supporters receive will offer explanations why the AGW theory has received overwhelming backing.
    Anthropologic Global Warming theory is a marketers dream. It has paved the way for the development of new inventions, provided funding for scientists, and created a demand for eco-friendly products, including everything from hairspray to solar panels. The effectiveness of AGW propaganda can be measured by the demand for environmentally friendly products in the past two decades. Various companies have sought the endorsement of the EPA to tout their products to the recently converted AGW believers.
    A Google search for “eco-friendly” results in 12,000,000 hits; while a search for “eco” alone yields over 81 million.16 Products offered include vacationing, health food, books, beauty products, air filters, soap, home products, pest control, televisions, insurance and more. Nearly every type of company, hawking every type of good or service has capitalized on eco-friendly marketing. AGW propaganda propels multi-billion dollar industries to exploit the fears that global warming proponents have sown into the unwitting minds of the masses.
    Businesses are not the only entities that have profited from the AGW propaganda. Foreign nations, such as China, France and Germany regularly use the theory as diplomatic leverage to pressure the United States to curb its industry, attempting to weaken the US as the world’s lone super power. Developing nations in South America have attempted to use their rain forests as leverage to receive foreign aid and political clout. The Brazilian government has asked for over $1.5 billion in aid to fund projects that are aimed at preserving their rainforests- similar to demanding a ransom.17 While it is doubtful that they will receive the blank check their government has asked for, it is clear that hundreds of millions of dollars will continue to flow to the region in an attempt to prevent them from destroying their own rainforests.
    The AGW scientists, of course, are recipients of the successful propaganda as well. As governments and industry realize that their continued power and income rely on new “shocking” revelations by authoritative scientists, more funding will be provided to ensure a steady flow of fodder for the propaganda engine. Scientists will receive grants and endowments to undertake new and expensive studies to solidify the theory and guarantee their salaries for years- that is, as long as their reports confirm the AGW theory. In turn, those universities that produce the scientists benefit from the surge in new students seeking to “save the Earth” as well as from grants, scholarships, and funding to increase the programs, which feed the AGW machine.
    The United States may also strategically benefit from the AGW theory- if it can politically resist the worldwide call for it to join the Kyoto Protocol. During the economic “eco-surge,” scientists and inventors are receiving mass funding to develop and discover new environmentally friendly fuels, including bio-fuels and hydrogen engines. If the scientists are successful and entrepreneurs can find a way to profitably market these new products, the United States, and consequently the world, will come to depend less on oil as a source of energy. Although only 20% of US oil consumption comes from the Middle East, OPEC, the largest conglomeration of oil producing countries that determines production rates for those nations, is comprised primarily of Middle Eastern nations. This is in-line with the current administration’s policy: “By applying the talent and technology of America, this country can dramatically improve our environment, move beyond a petroleum-based economy, and make our dependence on Middle Eastern oil a thing of the past”.18 It seems that nearly everyone and every nation can benefit from the AGW theory to accomplish its goals- including the United States.

    The Problem:
    If so many benefit from the AGW theory, what is the problem with promoting it? From a marketer’s viewpoint, probably nothing; however, a moral dilemma presents itself when the truth about global warming is discovered and attempts to cover it up and discredit it occur. For hundreds of years, scientists, which the AGW proponents hold up on a pedestal, have used a process of experimentation called the scientific method. The basic tenant of the Scientific Method is that you can only attempt to disprove a hypothesis. A hypothesis that cannot be disproved does not mean that it is correct; it simply becomes a theory, which other scientists must then try continually to disprove.
    Why then do scientific organizations and communities set out to support or prove the AGW theory? As scientists, they should be trying to disprove the theory rather than find ways to reinforce it. Further, the entire study of AGW theory is based on peer review, which conclusions form an authoritative basis for future development on the theory. The problem is that good experiments are not based on authority. If Galileo had based his reasoning on authoritative writing of his day, he would never have developed the fact that the universe does not revolve around the Earth. However, working theories do serve to create a model to predict future observations- this is what the IPCC has done, with illogical results that only perpetuate the theory.
    For years, supporters of the AGW theory have warned that the human activities have led to global warming and threaten the existence of human life itself. The hotter temperatures, they say, will cause crops to wither and famine to spread as moisture is evaporated from the soil. Indeed, AGW champions have used every method of propaganda to convince the world’s population that it will soon die.

    Bad Models
    In a petition signed by more than 17,000 scientists, they urged the US government not to sign the Kyoto Protocol. They argued that the research data on climate change does not show that human use of hydrocarbons is harmful. Conversely, they claim that there is good evidence that increased atmospheric carbon dioxide is environmentally helpful.
    ”There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing (or will in the foreseeable future cause) catastrophic heating of the earth’s atmosphere and disruption of the earth’s climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the earth.”19
    The science behind the AGW theory is simply not good science. The logic does not add up, the experiments are based on a faulty hypothesis, the models based on that hypothesis are unsurprisingly incorrect as well- which lead to inaccurate predictions designed to only accomplish the agenda of the backers.

    Assuming, momentarily, that the AGW theory is true, that humans have caused the earth to warm exponentially, logical conclusions could be drawn based on the theory. Indeed, contrary to the dire predictions of fearful environmentalists, a warmer planet will have beneficial consequences on the world’s food supplies. Longer growing seasons, more sunshine and precipitation, shorter winters and less frequent frosts, with summertime temperatures rising only slightly, will create a better environment for humans, plants and animals alike.
    According to the AGW theory, as the planet warms, the oceans will release copious amounts of carbon dioxide, a chemical compound that plants thrive on and require for life. With the increased amounts of carbon dioxide, plant life will flourish, absorbing the chemical as a fertilizer. Since 1950, in a period of global warming, the increase of carbon dioxide released from humans and the oceans have helped the world’s grain production soar from 700 million more than 2 billion tons last year.20 Clearly, the increased mean temperature and warming in the northern hemisphere will have positive effects for farmers across the world.
    Continuing with the assumption that AGW model predictions on the melting ice caps are true, the melting and warming of the polar ice caps will have an equalizing effect on equatorial currents and wind currents. Because there will be less drastic contrasts in temperatures, hurricanes and violent storms, currently understood to be caused when a cold air front meets a massive warm front and the shifting air currents erupt in intense weather, will be less frequent. The warming temperatures will result in more evaporation, as the calamitous IPCC predictions suggest, however, the evaporation will occur on the ocean surface as well- which the increased atmospheric temperatures will not be able to retain, causing life giving rainclouds to form, delivering much needed rain to regions already suffering drought. The predictions presented by the AGW crowd seem to only cover the negative aspects of the model, stressing the evaporation portion of the hydrological cycle, yet forgetting the rain that the evaporation inevitably brings.
    The Center for Global Food Issues reports that, based on satellite reports, the Earth has been getting greener since 1982, thanks apparently to increased rainfall and CARBON DIOXIDE; and, worldwide vegetative activity generally increased by 6.17 percent between 1982 and 1999- despite extended cloudiness due to the 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo and other well-publicized environmental stresses. 21 Apparently, plants thrive in carbon dioxide rich environments; these studies have prompted greenhouse owners to pump large amounts of it into their greenhouses resulting in record size tomatoes and flowers.
    Real science is based on repeatable scientific experiments that can be reproduced anywhere in the world. Actual experiments have resulted in finds from nearly 800 scientific observations around the world that a doubling of carbon dioxide from present levels would improve plant productivity on average by 32 percent across species.22 While the theory of AGW may not be disprovable, the predictions based on the theory are wildly illogical and serve only the agendas of AGW propagandists and those they serve.

    The Real Story

    The fact is that the Earth’s climate is always changing and has been since it was formed. Ice core samples taken from the Vostok Station in Antarctica show that major ice ages followed by warming periods, sprinkled with minor ice ages are a natural phenomenon; that is, they occur regardless of human activity. What causes these ice ages and warming periods is unknown; however, it is likely that several factors contribute to the episodes outside of human control.
    Over millions of years, as Earth orbits the sun, its axis changes ever so slightly. This is known as global forcing- what causes this is unknown. A few degrees of change, however, can impact the temperature of the Earth. Additionally, levels of green house gasses can impact the temperature of the Earth by acting like an insulator to keep solar radiation in the atmosphere. Further, major catastrophes, such as substantial volcanic activity can impact the global temperature and climate as well as extra-terrestrial factors including solar flares, asteroids and cosmic wind. Finally, a factor that is rarely discussed amongst anthropologic global warming propagandists is the theory that the Earth’s core is responsible for the fluctuations in the ocean temperatures, and subsequently, the atmospheric warming and cooling.
    The increase of greenhouse gasses has been correlated with the increase of temperature. Examination of the ice cores shows that levels of carbon dioxide can be used to estimate historical temperatures. A fallacy that AGW proponents have perpetuated, is that carbon dioxide levels cause the temperature to rise, when the most logical explanation for the relationship is a warming/cooling cycle where the increase of temperatures causes the oceans to release large amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. The increased release of carbon dioxide and water vapor, the primary green house gas, subsequently compounds the warming process until the skies become super-saturated with cloud cover. The increased cloud cover blocks the incoming solar radiation leading to lower surface temperatures and increased snowfall, and denser carbon dioxide levels in the oceans, rather than the skies. The decreased cloud cover results in the surface temperatures rising and the oceans releasing carbon dioxide; and the cycle starts over again.
    Another possibly significant contributing factor to climate change is solar flares and sun spots. Occasionally, the sun releases extra amounts of energy, which is visible in the form of solar flares and sunspots. These flare ups generate solar wind which disturbs the path of cosmic dust in the path of the Earth’s orbit, blowing it out of the way. The cosmic dust would normally collide with the Earth’s atmosphere, bonding to water vapor found in the atmosphere, generating cloud cover. When solar flares erupt, cloud cover is significantly reduced, causing temperatures to rise temporarily. This factor is generally understood to be insignificant in the macro view of global climate change.
    Ocean water retains heat at a much higher percentage than the atmosphere and has the ability to transfer heat at a much higher rate than the atmosphere. This simply means that the oceans cannot be easily warmed by atmospheric temperatures; yet, the opposite is true for the atmosphere. The ice suspended over the oceans is 90% submerged. To melt the polar ice caps, the water surrounding them must be warmed. A simple demonstration can be constructed to show that ice melts faster in water than it does out of it.
    This phenomenon can be observed in both the northern and southern poles. The Arctic ice caps, which are suspended in the ocean, are melting rapidly, as are the ice caps over the ocean in near Antarctica. However, the ice over the land mass in Antarctica is actually thickening- evidence that that it is the oceans warming over the poles rather than the air. Since the ice caps are already floating in the ocean, melting them will not cause the oceans level to rise- except for the ice melted over land which drains into the oceans.
    A further observation regarding the theory that the heat is originating from the oceans instead of the atmosphere is increased precipitation levels. The United Nations Environmental Programme (UNEP) reported that during the last 100 years, precipitation has increased over land at high latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere, especially during the cold season.23 Increased atmospheric gas temperature results in increased water vapor retention; conversely, increases in the oceans’ temperature results in evaporation, which results in more precipitation. The report from UNEP supports the theory that during periods of cooler atmospheric temperatures, precipitation increases. Because of the increase in precipitation, ice is in fact thickening over the landmasses at Antarctica and Greenland, as shown by satellites, which use radar to measure thickness of ice.24 The snowfall over the southernmost continent will remain there for a long time and will continue to accumulate until a balance has been achieved.
    Atmospheric temperatures have increased significantly in micro-climates regionally due primarily to the rising ocean temperatures; though world-wide air temperatures have not increased much at all. Europe and Greenland have experienced a rise in surface temperatures due to the Gulf Stream, which gathers heat from the Atlantic Ocean and delivers it to what would otherwise be a cooler climate. North America is experiencing a warmer atmosphere due to the warming of the arctic- due to the melting of the ice caps surrounded by water, where most of the cooler air for North America originates. These explanations can all be attributed to the warming of the oceans.
    The Earth’s molten core is heating the oceans. Heat continually radiates from the core to the mantle and is evidenced in the form of volcanoes, geothermic wells, geysers, and the fact of geothermal gradients, meaning that the deeper into the Earth one travels, the warmer the temperature. Because the center of the Earth is liquid, it may move from place to place depending on gravity and centrifugal forces. Since absolute North changes periodically, it may indicate that the core is changing position as well. Observations from space show that the Earth is not round, but pear-shaped, with the bulk of the Earth located in the Southern Hemisphere.25 If the absolute center of the Earth has recently relocated to the Southern Hemisphere, it may account for the increased ocean temperatures- as less land mass is located in the lower half.

    Conclusion
    Whether the Earth is warming from the oceans or from the sun, it is imperative to recognize propaganda for what it is. Anthropogenic Global Warming may be the largest misunderstanding of the Earth nature since we thought the world was flat. The tools used to convince the masses that such a theory is true are tools of pure propaganda. The unscrupulous scientists that perpetuate the lie are only partially to blame, as they are manipulated by the politics and commerce of the world. As AGW propagandists play with the heartstrings of the Earth’s population and billions of dollars are invested to prevent its demise, monetary funds are drawn away unnecessarily from other more worthy projects. The AGW propaganda has found its way into the lives of citizens by every possible avenue; the truth is available for those who earnestly seek it; though covered by years of propagandistic lies.

  147. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said:”“First you serve up bovine excrement, and now canine excrement.”

    Ed you are so uptight you gotta get with and be a little flexible you know.

    Necropsy: A postmortem examination or autopsy

  148. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said:”A few hardy bears might be able to swim 200 miles on a perfect day — 20 miles is the usual range, and anything past 20 can be deadly for the bear.”

    You been swimming with the bears again Ed. How precious.

  149. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “First you serve up bovine excrement, and now canine excrement.”

    I thought you loved that stuff for dessert Ed! Eat up Ed it’s really good for and the environment.

  150. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Editor’s note: Just follow the link given. The caption says the cub died from starvation.”

    Hey Ed maybe it’s because the bears have over populated their environment. Let’s get a look at the necropsy for that bear to make sure these guys didn’t miss something.

  151. Ed Darrell Says:

    No Ed that is 200 miles. Why didn’ you read mine?

    I did read that line — but I scraped that stuff off my shoe before I posted the next line. First you serve up bovine excrement, and now canine excrement.

    A few hardy bears might be able to swim 200 miles on a perfect day — 20 miles is the usual range, and anything past 20 can be deadly for the bear.

  152. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Must we read the stuff for you, too?”

    No problem Ed you read mine I’ll read yours I wouldn’t want to over work you.

  153. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: Polar bears do okay in a 20-mile stretch. Why didn’t you bother to read the article?

    No Ed that is 200 miles. Why didn’ you read mine?

  154. Ed Darrell Says:

    Ed this is cute but polar bears know how to swim.

    Polar bears do okay in a 20-mile stretch. Why didn’t you bother to read the article?

    However, last September, when the ice cap had retreated a record 160 miles north of Alaska, 51 bears were spotted, of which 20% were seen in the open sea, swimming as far as 60 miles off shore.

    Then it explained why that means polar bears are drowning:

    The researchers returned to the vicinity a few days later after a fierce storm and found four dead bears floating in the water. “We estimate that of the order of 40 bears may have been swimming and that many of those probably drowned as a result of rough seas caused by high winds,” said the report.

    In their search for food, polar bears are also having to roam further south, rummaging in the dustbins of Canadian homes. Sir Ranulph Fiennes, the explorer who has been to the North Pole seven times, said he had noticed a deterioration in the bears’ ice habitat since his first expedition in 1975.

    “Each year there was more water than the time before,” he said. “We used amphibious sledges for the first time in 1986.”

    Must we read the stuff for you, too?

  155. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said:”Hexmate says this doesn’t happen”

    Yeah Ed it does happen so you think maybe you might be able to find out how that bear died? Don’t forget your snow shoes. What a farce. You certainly can do better than that Ed. Talk about no data.

    Editor’s note: Just follow the link given. The caption says the cub died from starvation.

  156. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “The researchers returned to the vicinity a few days later after a fierce storm and found four dead [polar] bears floating in the water. “We estimate that of the order of 40 bears may have been swimming and that many of those probably drowned as a result of rough seas caused by high winds,” said the report”

    Ed this is cute but polar bears know how to swim.

    A polar bear that swam more than 200 miles through near-freezing water to reach Iceland was shot by local police – just in case it posed a danger to humans.

    The death of the bear, thought to be the first to reach Iceland in about 15 years, caused a public outcry from animal lovers, the Guardian reported. A police spokesperson said that it would not have been possible to sedate the bear.

    “There was fog up in the hills and we took the decision to kill the bear before it could disappear into the fog,” police spokesman Petur Bjornsson.

    Iceland’s environment minister, Thorunn Sveinbjarnardottir is said to have given the green light for police to shoot to kill because it would have taken 24 hours for a proper tranquilizer to be flown to the scene.

    A vet from a neighboring town, however, criticized the decision, claiming that he had the drugs necessary in the trunk of his car.

    “If the narcotics gun would have been sent by plane, it would have arrived within an hour,” he said. “They could keep tabs on the bear for that long.”

    The bear is believed to have swam either about 200 miles from Greenland or from some distant chunk of Arctic ice. The last time a polar bear made a similar journey to reach Iceland was in 1993, and that bear was also shot to death.

    The tragedy is being cited as a reminder of the impact that receding North Pole ice has on its animal inhabitants – the shrinking of the polar bears’ hunting and mating grounds and the ripple effect on the area’s eco-system.

  157. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “You offer not an iota of rebuttal, just insult in response.

    Another case of the empty vessel making the most noise, I reckon.”

    Ed my data is there all you have to offer is some what if scenario not facts – just IF. That’s not data, facts or proof Ed. Gee I can hear you banging around all the way over here.

  158. Ed Darrell Says:

    The researchers returned to the vicinity a few days later after a fierce storm and found four dead [polar] bears floating in the water. “We estimate that of the order of 40 bears may have been swimming and that many of those probably drowned as a result of rough seas caused by high winds,” said the report.

    London Times, Online

  159. Ed Darrell Says:

    Hexmate says this doesn’t happen:
    Dead Polar Bear Cub in Spitzbergen - starved to death

    Photo from ImageBank

  160. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “And yet, despite the drop off in solar irradiance, temperatures are NOT dropping,”

    Ed don’t cherry pick read the whole thing – no oopsie except for that little puddle you left behind.

  161. Ed Darrell Says:

    No Ed, YOU are screening the issues from reality. Take a little responsibility for yourself. It will be very fulfilling.

    Gee, Hexmate. You claimed the polar bear populations are increasing, without any pointer to any evidence, without even a link to one of your pseudo-science sites.

    I bothered to look up the data from the Polar Bear Study Group, the most distinguished, the most experienced, the most accurate group on polar bear populations — and I cited their conclusions and linked to their report.

    You offer not an iota of rebuttal, just insult in response.

    Another case of the empty vessel making the most noise, I reckon.

  162. Ed Darrell Says:

    And yet, despite the drop off in solar irradiance, temperatures are NOT dropping, because (according to that site you cited) Anthropogenic global warming is offsetting the cooling.

    Oopsie.

    SOLAR MINIMUM VS. GLOBAL WARMING: From 2002 to 2008, decreasing solar irradiance has countered much anthropogenic warming of Earth’s surface. That’s the conclusion of researchers Judith Lean (NRL) and David Rind (NASA/GISS), who have just published a new analysis of global temperatures in the Geophysical Research Letters. Lean and Rind considered four drivers of climate change: solar activity, volcanic eruptions, ENSO (El Nino), and the accumulation of greenhouse gases. The following plot shows how much each has contributed to the changing temperature of Earth’s surface since 1980:
    Charts of Solar Irradiance and Global Warming

    Volcanic aerosols are a source of cooling; ENSO and greenhouse gases cause heating; the solar cycle can go either way. When added together, these factors can account for 76% of the variance in Earth’s surface temperature over the past ~30 years, according to the analysis of Lean and Rind.

    Several aspects of their model attract attention: “The warmest year on record, 1998, coincides with the ’super-El Nino’ of 1997-98,” points out Lean. “The ESNO is capable of producing significant spikes in the temperature record.” Solar minimum has the opposite effect: “A 0.1% decrease in the sun’s irradiance has counteracted some of the warming action of greenhouse gases from 2002 – 2008,” she notes. “This is the reason for the well-known ‘flat’ temperature trend of recent years.”

    What’s next? Ultimately, the authors say, temperatures will begin rising again as greenhouse gases accumulate and solar activity resumes with the coming of the next solar cycle. Of couse, the solar cycle could be out of whack; if solar minimum deepens and persists, no one is certain what will happen. Lean and Rind reveal their predictions for the future here.

    Reference: Lean, J. L., and D. H. Rind (2009), How will Earth’s surface temperature change in future decades?, Geophys. Res. Lett., 36, L15708

    [Sorry about the bleed over of the chart.]

  163. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Interesting how you call the world’s most qualified and most respected experts “unproven,” and say they try to “screen the issue from reality.”

    No Ed, YOU are screening the issues from reality. Take a little responsibility for yourself. It will be very fulfilling.

  164. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Please don’t project to me your evidentiary flaws, and especially don’ project them on the people who know.”

    I don’t need to Ed the facts speak for themselves. You should read them.

  165. Hexmate Says:

    More data for you to chew on about polar bears Ed.

    Arctic Fairy Tale
    The polar bear isn’t threatened, but Big Oil should be.

    By Roy Spencer

    The decision on Wednesday by the U.S. Interior Department to declare the polar bear a threatened species under the Endangered Species Act is a major victory for environmentalists who have been looking for a back-door legal mechanism to limit carbon-dioxide emissions.

    The decision was made after nine U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) studies looked into the possibility that the polar bear might be faced with extinction late in this century. Polar bears need a sea ice environment for most of the year to thrive. But summer sea extent has been receding for the last 30 years that we have been monitoring it with satellites, and as a result, two of the 13 subpopulations of polar bear have seen population declines. The other eleven subpopulations have been stable or growing. In all, the total polar-bear population is believed to be at or near a record high — 20,000 to 25,000.

    So how is it that the eventual extinction of the polar bear has been forecast in the face of record-high numbers? Well, as in the case of global-warming projections, experts relied on computer models that predict continued global warming and continued melting of summer Arctic sea ice.

    And the scientists had some help. Hollywood did their part by producing the heartwarming movie Arctic Tale, which followed a polar bear family struggling to survive on a fixed budget and without a father around to help out. Queen Latifah did her part by channeling the polar bears’ thoughts for us, since the last person who tried to interview a polar bear was eaten.

    Parents did their part by taking their kids to see the movie. Then the kids pestered their parents to both pester their elected representatives and to contribute to the Save the Polar Bear Fund.

    Those nice folks at the Natural Resources Defense Council also helped out by finding experts willing to say that “if” the sea ice continues to recede, the polar bears “could” end up being at risk of extinction.

    But by now we all have learned that you can find an expert who will support whatever position you need to have supported. Two experts can look at the same data and come to completely different conclusions. This is perfectly normal in science because it is always easier to collect data than it is to figure out what the data are telling us in terms of cause and effect.

    In fact, the only peer-reviewed paper addressing the forecasting of polar-bear population (“Polar Bear Population Forecasts: A Public Policy Forecasting Audit,” which will appear soon in the management science journal Interfaces) found that those unpublished USGS studies did not follow accepted principles of scientific forecasting. Apparently, the “peer reviewed and published” requirement that the U.N.’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has for its gathering of global-warming information does not apply to polar bear research.

    The Inuit didn’t want the polar bear listed as threatened. They rely on the polar bear for their livelihood, and had been harvesting them at a sustainable rate. Even a former assistant secretary of the interior, William P. Horn, has warned Congress that listing of the polar bear under the ESA would be a mistake that would result in a number of negative unintended consequences.

    Quite frankly, I don’t believe the activists who have succeeded in getting the polar bear listed under the ESA really believe that the polar bear is threatened. This was just one more tool that will enable a gaggle of lawyers to go after the real object of the environmentalists’ disdain: Big Oil.

    And with three presidential candidates who all agree with the environmental activists, the coming months and years are looking pretty bleak for freedom, capitalism, and prosperity. Meanwhile, the polar bears will do just fine, just as they have during previous warm periods in history.

    I only hope when global warming ends, and is accepted to be a largely natural phenomenon rather than manmade, that all of the regulatory mistakes we’ve made can somehow be undone.

  166. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Please don’t project to me your evidentiary flaws, and especially don’ project them on the people who know.”

    Ed you don’t know anything – you are a flim-flam man.

  167. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: Hexmate, the group of experts from the five nations who have polar bears say the bears are seriously threatened by habitat reductions.”

    Well Ed their findings are being challenged so you better go to my links and get educated.

  168. Hexmate Says:

    More data Ed.

    THE scariest photo I have seen on the internet is http://www.spaceweather.com, where you will find a real-time image of the sun from the Solar and Heliospheric Observatory, located in deep space at the equilibrium point between solar and terrestrial gravity.

    What is scary about the picture is that there is only one tiny sunspot.

    Disconcerting as it may be to true believers in global warming, the average temperature on Earth has remained steady or slowly declined during the past decade, despite the continued increase in the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide, and now the global temperature is falling precipitously.

    All four agencies that track Earth’s temperature (the Hadley Climate Research Unit in Britain, the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York, the Christy group at the University of Alabama, and Remote Sensing Systems Inc in California) report that it cooled by about 0.7C in 2007. This is the fastest temperature change in the instrumental record and it puts us back where we were in 1930. If the temperature does not soon recover, we will have to conclude that global warming is over.

    There is also plenty of anecdotal evidence that 2007 was exceptionally cold. It snowed in Baghdad for the first time in centuries, the winter in China was simply terrible and the extent of Antarctic sea ice in the austral winter was the greatest on record since James Cook discovered the place in 1770.

    It is generally not possible to draw conclusions about climatic trends from events in a single year, so I would normally dismiss this cold snap as transient, pending what happens in the next few years.

    This is where SOHO comes in. The sunspot number follows a cycle of somewhat variable length, averaging 11 years. The most recent minimum was in March last year. The new cycle, No.24, was supposed to start soon after that, with a gradual build-up in sunspot numbers.

    It didn’t happen. The first sunspot appeared in January this year and lasted only two days. A tiny spot appeared last Monday but vanished within 24 hours. Another little spot appeared this Monday. Pray that there will be many more, and soon.

    The reason this matters is that there is a close correlation between variations in the sunspot cycle and Earth’s climate. The previous time a cycle was delayed like this was in the Dalton Minimum, an especially cold period that lasted several decades from 1790.

    Northern winters became ferocious: in particular, the rout of Napoleon’s Grand Army during the retreat from Moscow in 1812 was at least partly due to the lack of sunspots.

    That the rapid temperature decline in 2007 coincided with the failure of cycle No.24 to begin on schedule is not proof of a causal connection but it is cause for concern.

    It is time to put aside the global warming dogma, at least to begin contingency planning about what to do if we are moving into another little ice age, similar to the one that lasted from 1100 to 1850.

    There is no doubt that the next little ice age would be much worse than the previous one and much more harmful than anything warming may do. There are many more people now and we have become dependent on a few temperate agricultural areas, especially in the US and Canada. Global warming would increase agricultural output, but global cooling will decrease it.

    Millions will starve if we do nothing to prepare for it (such as planning changes in agriculture to compensate), and millions more will die from cold-related diseases.

    There is also another possibility, remote but much more serious. The Greenland and Antarctic ice cores and other evidence show that for the past several million years, severe glaciation has almost always afflicted our planet.

    The bleak truth is that, under normal conditions, most of North America and Europe are buried under about 1.5km of ice. This bitterly frigid climate is interrupted occasionally by brief warm interglacials, typically lasting less than 10,000 years.

    The interglacial we have enjoyed throughout recorded human history, called the Holocene, began 11,000 years ago, so the ice is overdue. We also know that glaciation can occur quickly: the required decline in global temperature is about 12C and it can happen in 20 years.

    The next descent into an ice age is inevitable but may not happen for another 1000 years. On the other hand, it must be noted that the cooling in 2007 was even faster than in typical glacial transitions. If it continued for 20 years, the temperature would be 14C cooler in 2027.

    By then, most of the advanced nations would have ceased to exist, vanishing under the ice, and the rest of the world would be faced with a catastrophe beyond imagining.

    Australia may escape total annihilation but would surely be overrun by millions of refugees. Once the glaciation starts, it will last 1000 centuries, an incomprehensible stretch of time.

    If the ice age is coming, there is a small chance that we could prevent or at least delay the transition, if we are prepared to take action soon enough and on a large enough scale.

    For example: We could gather all the bulldozers in the world and use them to dirty the snow in Canada and Siberia in the hope of reducing the reflectance so as to absorb more warmth from the sun.

    We also may be able to release enormous floods of methane (a potent greenhouse gas) from the hydrates under the Arctic permafrost and on the continental shelves, perhaps using nuclear weapons to destabilise the deposits.

    We cannot really know, but my guess is that the odds are at least 50-50 that we will see significant cooling rather than warming in coming decades.

    The probability that we are witnessing the onset of a real ice age is much less, perhaps one in 500, but not totally negligible.

    All those urging action to curb global warming need to take off the blinkers and give some thought to what we should do if we are facing global cooling instead.

    It will be difficult for people to face the truth when their reputations, careers, government grants or hopes for social change depend on global warming, but the fate of civilisation may be at stake.

  169. Ed Darrell Says:

    Ed your links go lead to nothing other than more unproven, fact less information that substantiate nothing. It is simply your effort to continue to screen the issue from reality.

    Except that link went to the most prestigious, longest-running group of outstanding polar bear experts in the world, issuing the report from their 15th meeting since the group formed in the 1960s. Interesting how you call the world’s most qualified and most respected experts “unproven,” and say they try to “screen the issue from reality.”

    Please don’t project to me your evidentiary flaws, and especially don’ project them on the people who know.

  170. Ed Darrell Says:

    Hexmate, the group of experts from the five nations who have polar bears say the bears are seriously threatened by habitat reductions.

    The Polar Bear Study Group noted its findings in July 2009 (you could have read it yourself):

    The PBSG renewed the conclusion from previous meetings that the greatest challenge to conservation of polar bears is ecological change in the Arctic resulting from climatic warming. Declines in the extent of the sea ice have accelerated since the last meeting of the group in 2005, with unprecedented sea ice retreats in 2007 and 2008. The PBSG confirmed its earlier conclusion that unabated global warming will ultimately threaten polar bears everywhere.

    and

    The PBSG recognizes that where habitats are stable, polar bears are a renewable resource, and reaffirmed its support of the right of aboriginal groups to harvest polar bears within sustainable limits. The PBSG noted that the population of polar bears in Baffin Bay, shared between Greenland and Canada, may simultaneously be suffering from significant habitat change and substantial over harvest, while at the same time interpretations by scientists and local hunters disagree regarding population status. Similarly, the Chukchi Sea polar bear population which is shared by Russia and the United States is likely declining due to illegal harvest in Russia and one of the highest rates of sea ice loss in the Arctic. Consistent with its past efforts to coordinate research and management among jurisdictions, the PBSG recommended that the polar bear populations in Baffin Bay and the Chukchi Sea be reassessed and that harvests be brought into balance with the current sustainable yield.

    and

    Reviewing the latest information available the PBSG concluded that 1 of 19 subpopulations is currently increasing, 3 are stable and 8 are declining. For the remaining 7 subpopulations available data were insufficient to provide an assessment of current trend. The total number of polar bears is still thought to be between 20,000 and 25,000. However, the mixed quality of information on the different subpopulations means there is much room for error in establishing that range. That potential for error, given the ongoing and projected changes in habitats and other potential stressors is cause for concern. Nonetheless, the PBSG is optimistic that humans can mitigate the effects of global warming and other threats to polar bears, and ensure that they remain a part of the Arctic ecosystem in perpetuity.

    So the experts say one of 19 subpopulations is up; 8 are declining.

    Whom should we believe, the experts from five nations who have been studying the bears for 30 years, or you?

  171. Hexmate Says:

    Polar Bear Populations are Prosperous and Growing
    Listing the Polar Bear as “Threatened” Under the ESA Could Harm Bears and Humans Alike; Says New Study Released with the Ad

    National Center for Public Policy Research

    http://www.nationalcenter.org

    Washington, D.C. – In light of environmentalist campaigns pressuring the Administration to list the polar bear as “threatened” under the Endangered Species Act, the National Center for Public Policy Research, joined by Citizens United, has released for the Internet a lighthearted parody political ad to remind the public that the polar bears’ situation isn’t as dire as some environmental organizations are leading the public to believe.

    The ad, a parody of the wild charges and breathless style of many political campaign ads, lets the public know what is not always clear from environmentalist lobbying campaigns: The global population of polar bears is 22,000, about double what it was just four decades ago.

    “Many people will be surprised to learn there are 22,000 polar bears and their population has doubled,” said David Ridenour, vice president of the National Center for Public Policy Research. “While obviously many aspects of our parody ad – such as the polar bears in suits, lobbying Congress – are complete fiction, the steady growth in the global polar bear population is real. We hope that people who view our parody ad seeking a laugh will remember that fact, and perhaps be inspired to look a little more deeply into the basis of environmentalist claims regarding the polar bear.”

    The ad is being released in conjunction with a National Center for Public Policy Research policy paper, “Listing the Polar Bear Under the Endangered Species Act Because of Projected Future Global Warming Could Harm Bears and Humans Alike,” by Peyton Knight and Amy Ridenour.

    The paper questions the wisdom of listing the polar bear as threatened based on environmentalist organizations’ projections of future global warming because:

    Listing the polar bear could have adverse affects on bear conservation efforts.

    Global polar bear population levels presently are healthy.

    The anthropogenic (human-caused) global warming theory remains only a theory, and climate science is in its infancy. Even those who agree with the global warming theory disagree about the extent of its projected effects.

    Listing the polar bear as threatened on the basis of projected future global warming would most likely be extremely expensive to the U.S. economy.

    Listing the polar bear based on projected global warming can be expected to greatly expand federal regulatory powers under the ESA.

    Because of its great expense and controversial nature, federal policies regarding global warming should be made only by Congress with input from the Executive Branch, not by a presidential appointee charged with enforcing a 1973 law written for other purposes.

    “Having failed despite spending tens of millions of dollars to convince the public, or even a Democratic Congress, that drastic and very expensive greenhouse gas emission reductions are warranted to deter theorized global warming, environmental organizations are now hijacking the Endangered Species Act to do an end-run around our democratic institutions,” said Amy Ridenour, president of the National Center for Public Policy Research and co-author of the paper. “The formal petition to the government seeking ‘threatened’ status for the polar bear makes it very clear: The environmental groups behind this scheme are trying to use the polar bear to force the government to impose a — in their words — ‘drastic’ reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. They want policies like those in the Kyoto global warming treaty forced upon Congress and the American public. The tragedy is that, if the environmentalists succeed, Americans — especially lower-income Americans — will be harmed, and so will the polar bears.”

    “Listing the polar bear under the Endangered Species Act could harm bear conservation efforts by eliminating revenues from the carefully-regulated sport hunting of polar bears by Americans and the importation of polar bear meat and trophies into the U.S. As hunting by non-Americans would replace hunting by Americans, nothing would be accomplished in terms of reducing the number of polar bears killed, but the revenue currently generated by American sport hunters for conservation and research efforts would be eliminated,” added Amy Ridenour. “And what’s more, global warming — if the global warming theory turns out to be accurate — would still occur, because greenhouse gas emissions in China, India, Europe and elsewhere are still growing by leaps and bounds.”

    The parody ad and policy paper can be viewed on the National Center’s website at http://www.nationalcenter.org/PolarBear.html.

    The National Center for Public Policy Research is a non-partisan organization located on Capitol Hill and established in 1982.

  172. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Gore’s science and his facts were exactly right. Typical of the denialists: Complain inaccurately about a trivial issue, and hope no one bothers to look at the real data; let the polar bears die, let the Inuit die — they live far away from the television cameras denialists crave to be seen in front of.”

    Actually Ed their population is up and at one of the largest levels ever reported. You lose again Ed.

  173. Hexmate Says:

    Nick said: And yet Hex you can’t point to anything that has been scientifically peer reviewed and published.

    The science isn’t on your side little one. Just acknowledge that truth and you’ll feel a lot better about yourself. That way you won’t be such a sociopathic liar.”

    Nick you have laying on the couch so long you have confused your case with these posts. There are plenty of scientifically proven facts that don’t support your scam but you are simply in denial.

  174. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “The few links to the key data sure beats no links to any data.”

    Ed your links go lead to nothing other than more unproven, fact less information that substantiate nothing. It is simply your effort to continue to screen the issue from reality.

  175. Ed Darrell Says:

    In March (2007), global warming fanatic Al Gore used a picture of two polar bears purportedly stranded on melting ice off the coast of Alaska as a visual aide to support his claim that man-made global warming is doing great harm to Mother Earth.

    But of course, the polar bears are in trouble. Gore’s science and his facts were exactly right. Typical of the denialists: Complain inaccurately about a trivial issue, and hope no one bothers to look at the real data; let the polar bears die, let the Inuit die — they live far away from the television cameras denialists crave to be seen in front of.

  176. Nick Kelsier Says:

    And yet Hex you can’t point to anything that has been scientifically peer reviewed and published.

    The science isn’t on your side little one. Just acknowledge that truth and you’ll feel a lot better about yourself. That way you won’t be such a sociopathic liar.

  177. Ed Darrell Says:

    . . .but he never produces any data other than a few links to try and send you around the tree a few times.

    The few links to the key data sure beats no links to any data.

    All of the empirical evidence now favors the “conservatives”, who apply the laws of physics and chemistry to known data and conclude that anthropogenic global warming can’t be happening.

    Then it really is a complete mystery why you can’t find any links to support your claims. Just bad luck on Google, and in the science journals, and in the labs, and in the meteorological data, and in the ice cores, and everywhere else, I suppose.

  178. Hexmate Says:

    The “debate” now seems to be settled down between two opposing political forces, commonly labeled “liberal” and “conservative”, and two separate scientific “methods” of proving their points. Here they are, in a nutshell:
    All of the empirical evidence now favors the “conservatives”, who apply the laws of physics and chemistry to known data and conclude that anthropogenic global warming can’t be happening. The coup de grace on the conservative side is the fact that CO2 is lagging temperature, and thus, they say, what happens next month can’t possibly be affecting what is happening today. We tend to favor this logic.
    The “liberals”, on the other hand, have turned to computer modeling to “prove” the world is about to come to an end. Models can and in fact are being constructed which can prove anything you want. By tweaking the data, you can even make them come out with the opposite answer. “Modeling” is a perfect tool for perpetuating a scam like this, because they have absolutely no basis in factual science, yet are easy to sell to the unsuspecting public who thinks they are a part of legitimate research process. Unfortunately, there is much “model tweaking” (OK, “faking” is the better word ) being done by the Hysterians to “prove” the sky is falling. This is commonly known as Junk Science. We saw one climate model in which the temperature was held constant while the CO2 concentration was arbitrarily doubled, a brilliant erasure of the laws of physics.

  179. Hexmate Says:

    This demonstrates Gore’s lack of integrity again which certainly is an example of his quest to impose this scam on the world.

    In March (2007), global warming fanatic Al Gore used a picture of two polar bears purportedly stranded on melting ice off the coast of Alaska as a visual aide to support his claim that man-made global warming is doing great harm to Mother Earth. The one he chose turned out to be a photo of a polar bear and her cub out doing what healthy, happy polar bears do on a wave-eroded chunk of ice not all that far from shore in the Beaufort Sea north of Barstow, Alaska.

  180. Hexmate Says:

    This is intersting – it is exactly what was happening this year.

    A new study released in Jan, 2008 by Chunzai Wang, a research oceanographer at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s Miami Lab and the University of Miami, suggests that Global warming could actually reduce the number of hurricanes that hit the United States. Wong found a link between warming waters, especially in the Indian and Pacific oceans, to increased vertical wind shear in the Atlantic Ocean near the United States And wind shear – a change in wind speed or direction – makes it hard for hurricanes to form, strengthen and stay alive. His conclusion is, “Global warming may decrease the likelihood of hurricanes making landfall in the United States,”
    His study is published in Geophysical Research Letters

  181. Hexmate Says:

    Solar scientists predict that, by 2020, the sun will be starting into its weakest solar cycle of the past two centuries. They say this will likely lead to unusually cool conditions on Earth. It is also predicted that this cool period will go much longer than the normal 11 year cycle, as the Little Ice Age did. The climate threat is actually cooling, especially to countries like Canada. On the northern limit to agriculture in the world, very little cooling would likely destroy much of its food crops.
    The Little Ice Age—the coldest period in the past 1500 years—corresponded perfectly with the Maunder Minimum. There was virtually no sunspot activity for almost seven decades in the Maunder Minimum(per Willie Soon/ Harvard/Astrophysics). It turns out that for those 60-70 years the northern half of our globe was in a deep freeze. The New York harbor froze, allowing walkers to journey from Manhattan to Staten Island, and the Vikings abandoned Greenland–a once verdant land that became tundra. In that Little Ice Age, Finland lost 1/3 of its population and Iceland 1/2.
    In the well-known 11-year “Schwabe” sunspot cycle, the output of the sun varies by about 0.1%. Sunspots are violent storms on the surface of the sun. Marine productivity and total irradiance match very well with records that have been kept for centuries on visible sunspots. Hundreds of studies of sunspots and earthly climate indicators(tree rings in Russia’s Kola Peninsula, to water levels of the Nile) show exactly the same thing—that the sun drives climate change.
    Even though it has been discovered that the sun is brighter now than anytime in the past 8000 years, the increase in solar output was not calculated to be sufficient to cause all of the past century’s modest warming. But that amplifier was discovered(starting in 2002) with scientific papers from Veizer, Shaviv, Carslaw, and most recently Svendsmark(Danish National Space Agency).
    All these scientists have proven(particularly w/Svendsmark) that the sun’s protective solar wind(from sunspots) blows away deep-space cosmic rays. With fewer sunspots there is less solar wind, more cosmic rays, and more cloud formation from those cosmic rays. More cloud formation means more cooling effect on the planet.
    In a 2003 poll, 2/3 of more than 530 climate scientists from 27 countries did not believe greenhouse gases were the main reason for global warming
    . In fact, overlays of CO2 variations show little correlation with earth’s climate on long, medium, and even short time scales. The science is nowhere near settled.
    Nigel Weiss(Mathematical Astrophysics/Cambridge) states that “Variable behavior of the sun is an obvious explanation.” He admits that we are now living in a period of abnormally high solar activity, and that these hyperactive periods do not last long(50-100 years), then you get a crash. “It’s a boom-bust system, and I would expect a crash soon.” And when the crash occurs, the Earth can cool dramatically.
    Dr. Kukla(Czechoslovakian Academy of Sciences) say he and many others realize that global warming always precedes an ice age. Each lasts about 100,000 years, punctuated by briefer, warmer periods called interglacials. We are in an interglacial now. This ongoing cycle closely matches cyclic variations in Earth’s orbit around the sun. Kukla says “The relationship is just too clear and consistent to allow reasonable doubt. It’s either that, or climate drives orbit, and that just doesn’t make sense.”
    No one knows when a ‘crash’ will occur, but scientists expect it soon. Mainly because the sun’s polar field is now at its weakest since measurements began in the 1950’s. A deep crash last occurred in the 17th century—and it was the Little Ice Age, or the Maunder Minimum. “Having a ‘crash’ would certainly allow us to pin down the sun’s true level of influence on the earth’s climate,” concludes Dr. Weiss. “Then we will be able to act on fact, rather than from fear.”
    It’s not likely greenhouse ‘gassers’ will be converted in 12 years. They’ll be busy looking for something humans have done to make it so cold

  182. Hexmate Says:

    Moderate – don’t you know that Ed is what’s called a gas bag in many circles. He will express a lot of hot air and double talk trying to spin his story and diffuse yours while screaming for data, but he never produces any data other than a few links to try and send you around the tree a few times. This is just his methodology of trying to maintain his position and keep you off balance. Of course we all know Ed is really off balance so it isn’t a problem to react to this style of tomfoolery. In fact I find it rather humorous. It also presents a certain challenge that I seem to really enjoy and since my experience in the military taught me to be very patient it is also well worth my time to continue to be persistent with regard to my comments which Ed has failed to debunk and he will not touch one that he can’t respond to of which there have been several. That means Eddie is losing and we are winning. Isn’t that right Ed? Ed please try not to produce so much hot air it is bad for the environment – just cool it! Time is on our side Moderate. 400 scientists who formerly supported this farce have now recanted their position and more are coming over every day while the likes of the “Eds” of the world are sinking into oblivion. It won’t be long now.

  183. Hexmate Says:

    More data for you to chase Ed. Come on now get going!

    When adding the sea ice volumes at both poles there is about the same ice as 30 years ago. Antarctica has 90% of the worlds ice and had the most sea ice ever recorded at the end of 2008, over one million square kilometers above the average maximum. The global sea ice extent today (combined sea ice at both Poles) is nearly the same as the average of the last 30 years according to NASA and NSIDC. View today’s Antarctic sea ice extent compared to the 1979-2007 average (National Snow and Ice Data Center) while it is true Arctic sea ice volumes are less today than the average of the last 30 years the ice there has been growing the past several years and as of mid September 2009 there was 24% more ice than just two years earlier, which is over 1 million square kilometers of new ice. There is also substantially more multi year ice in the Arctic in 2009 than just one year earlier Antarctic sea ice extent in September 2009 is also growing and is 1 million square kilometers more than the previous year. In 2009 the Antarctic had the most Summer ice ever recorded. View today’s Arctic sea ice extent AMSR-E NSIDC Nansen)

  184. Ed Darrell Says:

    I’d like to note once again that whatever Obama’s policies on energy are, they don’t excuse the abuse of facts, science and history, demonstrated by the “producers” of the movie this thread is nominally about — and it seems to me that the complete lack of integrity of the film is demonstrated by the failure of its fans to defend it in any way.

    The link also includes Gore’s position on nuclear power. As I already stated, France has been widly successful with nuclear power. So that is one example that would counter Gore’s skepticism.

    France has what would be described by Republicans as a socialist energy policy — the government does a lot of the work by fiat. I can see why that appeals to some, but it suggests that the translation to a more capitalist system might make some differences in how it works.

    One of the key differences is in safety. Under the French system, the nuclear safety people are required to put their family homes on the grounds of the facility where they and their children would be the first to get radiated in an accident. Ordering power company executives to live in the wilds near Farmington, New Mexico, (coal-fired), or Glen Rose, Texas (nuclear) probably isn’t a workable model. That’s not inherently so — but it’s pragmatically a great difficulty.

    Gore list two potential road blocks.

    “The first is economics; the current generation of reactors is expensive, take a long time to build, and only come in one size – extra large.”

    I dont see how they take any longer to build then say developing fledgling renewable sources.

    I dont see how expense is an issue. Considering that the government gave Gore’s company $500,000,000 to build cars in Europe, you would think that they could afford nuclear power in the US.

    The second to last nuclear power station built in the U.S. was the Comanche Peak station. It was slated to cost $1 billion — twice the $500 million figure you noted — but it ended up costing closer to $5 billion. It nearly bankrupted the company that ended up with it. It was years overdue. It boosted the price of electricity considerably just for the debt service (it’s figured into every bill I’ve paid for more than 20 years). Construction started in 1974, and the first unit came on line in 1990. 16 years in construction.

    I suppose you weren’t paying attention at the time, but I was, as part of several jobs I held in series. It wasn’t regulators or greenies who closed down the construction of new nuclear power plants in the U.S. The banks closed it down. They refused to lend money to projects that came in five times over the promised price, that took two or three times as long to build as planned — stretching past decades — and couldn’t begin payouts until a decade after the borrowers said it would, and then only with massive increases in rates.

    Power companies argued for years that they could only afford to make massive power plants in order to justify the costs of engineering and finance.

    Have things changed? Maybe. You’ll need to make a good case that things are radically different in banking — that bankers are looser with their funds, for example.

    France uses one set of plans, essentially, for a series of nuclear plants. We’ve found that almost impossible. Engineering a plant in Glen Rose, Texas, for earthquakes, is silly and needlessly expensive. Failing to engineer it for tornadoes would be stupid. But plants in California and Maine don’t need to worry about tornadoes.

    France has been able to avoid some of those costs because France is much smaller, less geologically active, and doesn’t have tornadoes regularly, for examples. One set of plans can serve several locations.

    How do you propose to fix this problem that we can’t use cookie cutter plans in the U.S.?

    They don’t come in one size. Smaller reactors are being developed. Plus you need to invest in the technology to overcome some of these minor issues. So much is being invested in other technology that you would think that nuclear power would also be included.

    We still have the largest builders of reactors in the world, but they are being eclipsed by Chinese companies. Do you propose to have the Chinese build our plants, or do you think such engineering would pass the bankers’ hurdles?

    Plus I dont see how “super large” is a problem. Gore seems to be complaining that nuclear reactors generate too much energy. I dont follow this.

    The biggest and thorniest problem is what do to with long-term dangerous radioactive wastes. The U.S. confronts the problem now because we have more than the rest of the world combined (with the possible exception of former Soviet sites, and that is a very uncomfortable topic in many circles — we just don’t know how much there is, how dangerous it is, or where it is). France has decided essentially to wink at the problem, as you can read at their site. They hope for a solution.

    As you know, U.S. plans for long-term storage of waste have been an unsolvable problem scientifically and politically for at least three decades. Think Yucca Mountain. The proposal to make Yucca Mountain our national long-term waste repository was made formally in 1978. The decision is still pending, and even Republicans in Nevada say it will never happen there.

    Under U.S. law, bankers will have to be satisfied that the costs of storage for 10,000 years or more can be rationally amortized.

    Got an amortization table that makes this possible? A lot of people would love to see it work. I have some connections with the Yucca Mountain science team, if you have a table that looks like it could work.

    Plus, France, as I mention again, doesnt seem to be bothered by any of these probelms.

    The French government tells the people they won’t be bothered by the problems, and as I noted above, they hope for a technological solution for waste storage that has not been developed.

    Your trust that our government will get the storage problem right, is impressive, though we haven’t been able to do it through Democratic or Republican presidencies and Congresses.

    I think you’re a little optimistic, overly optimistic.

  185. Ed Darrell Says:

    This is a speech from Al Gore. I will list a series of quotes and we can classify them as “hard science” or “fear inciting speculation.” I will try not to use anything that is in the wrong context.

    Okay, so when do you try to classify them?

  186. Moderation Says:

    Ed, maybe if you actaully read and analyzed my posts instead of responding with knee jerk reactions, you would see that my arguments are supported by quotes and examples. I can lead a horse to water but…

    For instance, I cite Spain as an example of cap and trade policies. Instead of analyzing the situation you accuse me turning into Bagdad Moderation (the politics of personal insult) and declare “cites no reason, no opposing evidence, no opposing data.”

    [Moderation Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    October 27, 2009 at 11:25 am]

    [possibly my comment has not yet been cleared, but I see it on the board and I would imagine you see it too]

    My position on Gore is also explained in this post along with distinctions between your stance and mine.

    As for Gore’s speeches, a linked directly to one of them and pulled numerous quotes about how he’s attempting to incite emotional responses (fear) from people.

    The link also includes Gore’s position on nuclear power. As I already stated, France has been widly successful with nuclear power. So that is one example that would counter Gore’s skepticism.

    Gore list two potential road blocks.

    “The first is economics; the current generation of reactors is expensive, take a long time to build, and only come in one size – extra large.”

    I dont see how they take any longer to build then say developing fledgling renewable sources.

    I dont see how expense is an issue. Considering that the government gave Gore’s company $500,000,000 to build cars in Europe, you would think that they could afford nuclear power in the US.

    They dont come in one size. Smaller reactors are being developed. Plus you need to invest in the technology to overcome some of these minor issues. So much is being invested in other technology that you would think that nuclear power would also be included.

    Plus I dont see how “super large” is a problem. Gore seems to be complaining that nuclear reactors generate too much energy. I dont follow this.

    Plus, Frannce, as I mention again, doesnt seem to be bothered by any of these probelms.

    “Secondly, if the world as a whole chose nuclear power as the option of choice to replace coal-fired generating plants, we would face a dramatic increase in the likelihood of nuclear weapons prolifer”

    He makes a decent point here. Nuclear power is not for everyone (but the world seems content to let Iran develop it). But I dont see the problem with the US investing more in nuclear power.

    As for the “hard science” of glaciers. I have really only skimmed through the remarks. But I notice some contradictory info and shifting stances. Hence, it is not “hard.”

  187. Ed Darrell Says:

    You were apparently wrong about Gore’s speeches and the cap and trade legislation.

    Really? According to whom? On what data? I learned in the courtroom that when the opposition is out of evidence, out of arguments, and realized the law is against them, they turn into Baghdad Bob every time. I post the evidence, moderation says it loses — but cites no reason, no opposing evidence, no opposing data. Baghdad Moderation, welcome to the site.

    Gore is way off base on the nuclear power issue, at least as it pertains to this country.

    On what part of the issue is he off base? What data lead you to that conclusion?

    What is Gore’s position?

    Let me know when you figure out this glacier thing. Then we can move onto other “hard science.”

    Got it figured out: Glaciers world-wide are melting due to warming; a few are actually adding snow due to lake effect storms, caused by global warming. But overall, glaciers are melting at increasingly rapid speeds.

    By the way, we’ve been on hard science for quite a while. You’re missing the first several assignments.

  188. Moderation Says:

    Ed, keep your head above the water.

    You were apparently wrong about Gore’s speeches and the cap and trade legislation.

    Gore is way off base on the nuclear power issue, atleast as it pertains to this country.

    Let me know when you figure out this glacier thing. Then we can move onto other “hard science.”

  189. Ed Darrell Says:

    Your link wasn’t conclusive evidence Ed and it didn’t address any of the other glaciers mentioned. You checking each of them isn’t data Ed it is just your way of dancing around the issue.

    Still waiting for you to offer even a link. Perhaps you thought you had included a link or some evidence, but check back to your post: Nothing but a list that doesn’t check out.

  190. Ed Darrell Says:

    Ed this is just another one of your diversionary tactics again. One donation of $750K doesn’t have a thing to do with $100 million (Gore’s estimated net worth at the present). So because he donated the money from the Nobel Prize has nothing to do with the cap & trade scam he has set up which is a direct conflict of interest. Come on Ed you are not convincing or providing any data to prove your point.

    You’ve offered no evidence of any scam of any sort. You’ve offered no evidence of any of your claims against Gore. What ho, clanging bell?

  191. Ed Darrell Says:

    Double bummer for you, Wraithe.

    1. That press release doesn’t say DDT is harmless. It says DDT can be used ONLY indoors, ONLY in a carefully monitored program. That’s not the outdoor mayhem that Carson warned against — and in fact, that’s exactly what Rachel Carson called for. WHO has adopted Rachel Carson’s position on DDT precisely. Why did it take them 45 years to come to Carson’s position — and why do you call it genocidal, when it’s the position that promotes the most malaria fighting?

    2. WHO’s position has been clarified a couple more times since — and it’s clear WHO agrees with the POPs Treaty, that DDT must be phased out. See WHO’s position here, in this 2007 note:
    http://www.who.int/ipcs/capacity_building/ddt_statement/en/

    WHO said:

    WHO promotes integrated vector management (IVM) as the approach of choice to control transmission of malaria and other vector-borne diseases. A key element of IVM is a solid evidence base for the effectiveness of combinations of locally-adapted, cost-effective and sustainable vector-control methods. This approach will facilitate sustainable transition away from DDT.

    In some countries, local conditions have made it possible to reduce or eliminate reliance on DDT. In other countries, at this time, the use of DDT for Indoor Residual Spraying (IRS) remains indicated. In such cases, DDT use should be managed in the context of the Stockholm Convention and following WHO recommendations.

    Because of its persistence, DDT tends to accumulate in the environment and in humans. Scientific evidence on the toxicity of DDT and its primary metabolites, DDE and DDD, including the most recent scientific publication, is kept under review by WHO and is currently being assessed formally. However, to date, no change in the existing WHO recommendations on the use of DDT for IRS1 has been warranted.

    (Carson recommended IVM, or IPM (integrated pest management) to keep DDT viable for use against devious and nasty pests while limiting exposures and damage from the stuff.)

    In that later press release, WHO points to this document from the POPs Treaty authority, “A Big Step Forward towards a DDT-free World.”

    Allied to measures such as improved health care, monitoring and education the findings could set the stage for meeting the twin aims of achieving the health-related and environmental Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) by 2015 while also ridding the world of the persistent organic pollutant DDT.

    The initiatives come amid long-standing and growing concern over the use of DDT and evidence that in many countries there is increasing mosquito resistance to the pesticide.

    However concern over DDT is matched by concern over the global malaria burden in which close to 250 million cases a year result in over 880,000 deaths. Thus any reduction in the use of DDT or other residual pesticides must ensure the level of transmission interruption is, at least, maintained.

    The international community has, under the Stockholm Convention, agreed to ban a ‘dirty dozen’ of persistent organic pollutants including, ultimately, DDT on environmental and health grounds.

    However, a specific and limited exemption was made for the use of DDT to control malaria, because it was recognized that in some situations adequate alternative control methods were not currently available.

    The aim of the new projects, a major initiative of the Global Environment Facility (GEF) with close to $40 million funding, being spearheaded by WHO and the UN Environment Programme (UNEP), is to achieve a 30% cut in the application of DDT world-wide by 2014 and its total phase-out by the early 2020s if not sooner, while staying on track to meet the malaria targets set by WHO.

    Working for a “DDT-free” world is hardly a ringing endorsement of the poison.

    WHO’s position is no different from that of the National Academy of Sciences, who said in 1980 that, while DDT may be ranked among the most beneficial chemical concoctions of all time, its dangers outweigh its benefits, and it must be eliminated from use.

    That “truth thing” is no bummer. It’s important that we understand reality so we can choose wisely. Sometimes the choices are difficult, but its always better to make informed choices that wild guesses.

  192. wraithe Says:

    http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2006/pr50/en/index.html, oh bummer, guess the fact that the World Health Organization says there is no health risk to using DDT doesn’t count as refuting Rachel Carson and her guilt in complicity in the genocide of millions of people due to slow, agonizing death from malaria. That truth thing is a real bummer.

  193. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Hexmate, see this post from yesterday:
    http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2009/08/16/new-junk-science-movie-not-evil-just-wrong/#comment-93012

    And this one:
    http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2009/08/16/new-junk-science-movie-not-evil-just-wrong/#comment-93013

    Ed this is just another one of your diversionary tactics again. One donation of $750K doesn’t have a thing to do with $100 million (Gore’s estimated net worth at the present). So because he donated the money from the Nobel Prize has nothing to do with the cap & trade scam he has set up which is a direct conflict of interest. Come on Ed you are not convincing or providing any data to prove your point.

  194. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “I really can’t take you seriously when you just offer a list of glaciers. If you have some support for what you claim, please offer it. I posted the link and the quotes from the University of Alaska, and they say that the glaciers you cited in Alaska are shrinking because of warming; they are on the move, but because of warming.

    Do you have data? We can’t see it here if you sit on it. Your butt is in the way.”

    Your link wasn’t conclusive evidence Ed and it didn’t address any of the other glaciers mentioned. You checking each of them isn’t data Ed it is just your way of dancing around the issue.

    It isn’t my butt that is in the way Ed is your rectal cranial inversion that is preventing you from seeing it.

  195. Ed Darrell Says:

    Hexmate, see this post from yesterday:
    http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2009/08/16/new-junk-science-movie-not-evil-just-wrong/#comment-93012

    And this one:
    http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2009/08/16/new-junk-science-movie-not-evil-just-wrong/#comment-93013

  196. Ed Darrell Says:

    That is very interesting Ed because the experts don’t agree with you so you better go get some data.

    I really can’t take you seriously when you just offer a list of glaciers. If you have some support for what you claim, please offer it. I posted the link and the quotes from the University of Alaska, and they say that the glaciers you cited in Alaska are shrinking because of warming; they are on the move, but because of warming.

    Do you have data? We can’t see it here if you sit on it. Your butt is in the way.

  197. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said:”Money that he donates to charity. Gore does not profit from the speaking; his business interests are absolutely legitimate.”

    Really Ed! Are you his accountant? No who is making the outlandish claims without any data? You have incredible double standard you operate by Ed.

  198. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “It’s data, Hexmate. You offered none. You gave a list of glaciers. Each one I checked, I found a story about how warming has made it smaller and less massive, with a couple of small exceptions.”

    That is very interesting Ed because the experts don’t agree with you so you better go get some data.

  199. Moderation Says:

    This is a speech from Al Gore. I will list a series of quotes and we can classify them as “hard science” or “fear inciting speculation.” I will try not to use anything that is in the wrong context.

    http://www.truthout.org/article/al-gore-global-warming-is-immediate-crisis

    1) we are moving closer to several “tipping points” that could – within as little as 10 years – make it impossible for us to avoid irretrievable damage to the planet’s habitability for human civilization

    2) a climate crisis that demands immediate action to sharply reduce carbon dioxide emissions worldwide in order to turn down the earth’s thermostat and avert catastrophe.

    3) how we can craft emergency solutions in order to avoid this catastrophic damage.

    4) we have to urgently expand the limits of what is politically possible

    5) many Americans are tired of borrowing huge amounts of money from China to buy huge amounts of oil from the Persian Gulf

    (maybe if we look for oil on our own soil we wont have to buy other peoples oil)

    6) the future of all human civilization – is hanging in the balance

    7) we should start by immediately freezing CO2 emissions and then beginning sharp reductions

    8a) While I am not opposed to nuclear power and expect to see some modest increased use of nuclear reactors

    8b) Wind energy is already fully competitive as a mainstream source of electricity and will continue to grow in prominence and profitability.

    (Gore thinks that nuclear reactors should play a “modest” role, but less productive technologies like wind power he describes as “fully competitive.”)

    9) coal is presently the cheapest source of abundant energy

    (Gore wants to make it much more expensive by including the emissions in the cost.

    10) the phrase “clean coal technology” is devoid of meaning unless it means “zero carbon emissions” technology

    12a) I have advocated the elimination of all payroll taxes – including those for social security and unemployment compensation – and the replacement of that revenue in the form of pollution taxes – principally on CO2

    12b) instead of discouraging businesses from hiring more employees, it would discourage business from producing more pollution

    (replacing taxes on employees with taxes on emissions is far from being that simple. In fact if companies become so efficient and innovative as Gore assumes, then new tax revenues will be needed, and less employees will be required to do the job)

    13) And, young people – as they did during the Civil Rights Revolution – are confronting their elders with insistent questions about the morality of not moving swiftly to make these needed changes.

    13) we’re pretending doesn’t exist is the stuff that is destroying the habitability of the planet

    14) This is not a political issue. This is a moral issue. It affects the survival of human civilization.

    (contradicts #4 at the least)

    15) the climate crisis is…the opportunity for new profit

    (I took this one out of context)

    16) In recent years we have squandered that moral authority and it is high time to renew it by taking on the highest challenge of our generation

    17) 20 million HIV/AIDs orphans in Africa alone, civil wars fought by children, genocides and famines, the rape and pillage of our oceans and forests, an extinction crisis that threatens the web of life, and tens of millions of our fellow humans dying every year from easily preventable diseases. And, by rising to meet the climate crisis, we will find the vision and moral authority to see them not as political problems but as moral imperatives.

    (thats the spirit!)

  200. Moderation Says:

    Ed, sorry I didnt include evidence for some of my claims. I thought you knew so much about this issue that you would know what I was refering to. Obviously you are more interested in events that support your side.

    Policies similar to the cap and trade proposal have been tried in Spain. Reports of 2.2 jobs lost for every 1 “green” job created and unemployment rates twice the European average.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/06/25/tilting_at_green_windmills_97168.html

    ^This is one place to start learning about Spain’s experience. It may not be the best source available, but you can do your own research on it. I would suggest that you dont jump to conclusions on this one.

    Here’s a link to the Obama quote. What he actually said was, “If someone wants to build a coal powered plant they can. Its just that its going to bankrupt them.”

    The context is cap and trade. Ed, I will let you work out the semantics on this one.

    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2008/11/02/hidden-audio-obama-tells-sf-chronicle-he-will-bankrupt-coal-industry

    The most surprising thing to me is that for all of Ed’s experience and knowledge on this subject, he appears totally ignorant of these two things that I mentioned. But I am sure he is already figuring out ways to dismiss them as stupidity on my part.

    Now lets move on to the issue of Al Gore and his income. I said before that this isnt about Mr. Gore but after reading your sermon about how unselfish he is I had a chill run up my leg ;)

    The fact is that I have made very little specific claims about Al Gore’s money. Ed, is the one who insists that all of his Nobel Prize went to charity and all of his speaking fees go to charity.

    I applaud Gore for giving his Nobel money to charity. It is the right thing to do, plus he is rich enough as it is. As for his speaking fees ($100,000 plus expenses), I am still waiting for Ed to track down where all of it goes.

    But let me clarify my view on Gore, since Ed does a bad job of speaking for me. Al Gore is a savvy investor. He has made a lot of money investing in a lot of different areas. He is obviously an intelligent and capable man (but he’s not the most intelligent or only intelligent person alive.) So I believe that Gore makes wise investments and as an individual is free to pursue wealth. He uses his money to do a lot of good things. He’s not evil and he’s not a saint.

    Let me explain the connection between publicity and investments for the third time.

    1) Al Gore has invested in green projects sush as solar panels, emissions reduction systems, renewable energy etc.

    2) Al Gore is a smart business man and wants the projects to do well. If they do well he will help to clean up the planet and can use the money he makes to invest in other green projects which will further help the planet.

    *I do not mention greed as a primary motive.

    3) By speaking about global warming, Gore is advertising a problem. He is saying, “look we need to change what we are doing.”

    4) Al Gore is heavily invested in many solutions to the problem. The more people are concerned about global warming, the more they will be interested in renewable energy and other things that Gore has invested in.

    5) By promoting the problem, he is promoting his solutions, and therefore promoting the success of his investments.

    Conclusion: speeches => better investments

    I only studied formal logic for a few years in college, and that was mostly in high level math classes, but I believe I have explained it clearly so that most people who look at it objectively will see the connection.

    But I can simplify even further.

    John sells apples at the Farmer’s Market. John uses a big megaphone to tell people how good apples are for them. People buy more apples and John makes more money.

    Now a critic might say that apples are in fact good for you and that John is being truthful. This is true. But Ed suggested that Gore has no personal benefit by giving speeches. That is absurd.

    Here’s one criticism of Gore’s conduct:

    http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15058

    Here’s a link about government funding going to a small company that is partially owned by Gore.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125383160812639013.html

    It doesnt imply anything illegal occured and neither did I. Ed put those words in my mouth to discredit me. But the fact is that political connections are very real and very helpful to those who have them. Of course Ed would know this.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125383160812639013.html

    Now that I have defended some of my views from criticism (and insult from Ed), I can speak to the actual issues at hand.

    Ed says that this link supports Gore’s case.

    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/74019.html

    Here are a couple quotes from the article,


    The skeptics include scientists such as Richard Lindzen, a meteorologist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, who thinks that climate science is too uncertain to justify drastic measures to control CO2. He calls the case for action against global warming “silly” and “grotesque.”

    So a scientist from MIT says that the science is too uncertain to justify drastic action against CO2 levels. This is the opposite of Mr. Gore’s case.


    Christy added, however: “Our ignorance of the climate system is still enormous, and our policy makers need to know that . . . We really don’t know much about what causes multi-year changes like this.”

    Another climate expert telling policy makers that scientific ignorance of the system is enormous. I really dont think this is part of Gore’s case either.

    The point of the article is that the earth has cooled over the last decade. Gore (who Ed calls the expert whom knows the most about this stuff) never suggested that the earth would cool despite is vast experience and resources. Hmmm….Gore didnt know what would happen, and he doesnt know what is going to happen.

    This returns me to my original premise. The fact is that “warmers” often express a level of knowledge about the future that is beyond human capacity. They say that bad things are imminent unless drastic and immediate changes are made, which always involve more goverment control over individuals.

    Or when challenged, they will retreat into the unknown (as Ed did). They will say that we dont know what is going to happen, but it might be terrible so we should act now before it is too late. There is a legitimate point here. We should avoid action with unknown consequences. But besides allowing fear to determine our actions, “warmers” are also advocating drastic measures to avoid unknown consequences, which is somewhat circular reasoning. You cant justify change by citing the unknown.

    That is why I believe in a more moderate path. We are aware of potential long term issues with our current system. We should recognize these issues, and recognize what is most real and urgent, and realize what is mostly speculation. We should allow the science to advance and allow renewable energy to develop. Then when the time is right, we can make a smooth and gradual transition.

    In the meantime, I would invest heavily in nuclear power. Its not something that “warmers” like to talk about. But nuclear power has zero harmful emmisions and the French have long figured out how to deal with the waste. In fact, nuclear power supplies ~%80 of their energy needs and they sell there knowledge, experience, and extra energy all around the world.

    Constellation Energy, which is the local supplier where I live, is selling their nuclear assets to a French company. Surprisingly enough (as Ed can tell you) the US invented nuclear power at the same time they were freeing the French from Nazi invasion. The nuclear power supply has been sadly static for along time now. And I blame the “warmer” attitude for preventing progress on this front.

    In our current state, we are not ready to transition to renewable energy sources, and premature action could have serious consequences. I live in a house on a couple acres of property, and when I can afford it I would love to buy solar panels and geothermal systems. Not only will it help the planet but it will make me less dependable on corporations and government. The real challenge may be in cities where the population density and energy demands are so high.

    I welcome all to flex their indivdual freedoms to live healthy and sustainable lifestyles. I also encourge people to be free thinkers and not allow the government to pass intrusive legislation when the debate is still far from over.

  201. Ed Darrell Says:

    When global warming critics say “closing down industry” they are refering to statements such as the one by Obama – “My policies will bankrupt the coal industry.” Its a simple connection that you should be able to make.

    Got a citation for that? Where did he say it, when, in what context?

    What does that have to do with global warming?

    When people say that Gore stands to profit from Global Warming issues they mean that he makes a lot of money talking and investing in global warming projects.

    Money that he donates to charity. Gore does not profit from the speaking; his business interests are absolutely legitimate. The Bible says a man has a right to work, and I don’t think anyone should gainsay God just because the guy working is Al Gore.

    He’s very bright, and he’s very good at what he does. Why should anyone be surprised he’s very successful in business?

    So the more people believe in global warming, the more money Gore will make.

    There are no links between Gore’s speaking and his making money in business. If anything, his advocacy takes away time he could be investing in making money.

    What is the logical path that goes from “Al Gore speaks on policy” to “Al Gore’s bank account swells?” I don’t see any links at all.

    Despite your charitable characterization of Mr. Gore, his net worth has greatly increased.

    He donated his share of the Nobel prize to charity, he donates his speaking fees. You’re making a post hoc ergo propter hoc error in implying a link. Got any evidence?

    I would imagine that he doesn’t fly around in his private jet and give speeches for free, does he?

    I’ve only met him on commercial flights. Does he own a private jet? I don’t think so. What’s your evidence? He donates the speaking fees (which are justifiably high — if you’re complaining about high honoraria, Gore’s not the worst of the lot by a long ways). I think it’s a very weak tea argument to say we should sacrifice the planet and do nothing to stop the damage “because Al Gore flies on jets!!!”

    Also, one company that he is invested in was given favourable treatment my the government over other companies.

    Documentation? Why was there no lawsuit?

    So he uses his political connections for his own financial benefit. Lets agree that his motives are not as pure as they might appear.

    If he’s acting illegally as you imply, how is he able to escape prosecution? Let’s have details.

    The most accurate description would be “global climate change” and not “global warming” since recent measurements indicate a slight decline in global temperatures over the last decade.

    That’s the claim of the Republican spinmeisters. “Global warming” is accurate enough. Under either name, Gore’s right on the science.

    Under either name, denialists are denying the science.

    This may be due to melting ice which may be caused by human activity.

    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/74019.html

    In that article, leading scientists cited by denialists say warming occurs. That article supports Gore’s case.

    The fact is that the global climate is a very complex thing and anyone who says that they can explain it all is lying.

    I’ve never run into anyone who claims to be able to explain it all. The atmosphere is a very dynamic, very large fluid, and no one can fully explain fluid dynamics in any system, not that I’ve ever seen.

    On the other hand, not being able to explain everything doesn’t deny what we can explain.

    Air pollution is not good. Failing to clean it up is not good, either.

    I know that human activity has negative effects on the environment. That is beyond questioning. But the significance of the effects, the consequences, and the proposed solutions can all be debated.

    Consider the cap and trade bill. Some US politicians think that by increasing the cost of pollution, there will be an incentive to produce cleaner energy. This is a sound statement. But at the same time, the price of energy and goods will increase because they will cost more to make. This is effectively a tax on everyone. It makes business less competitive, atleast in the short term, and could have serious economic consequences.

    The tax is minor, and justified. Our experience under the Clean Air Act of 1971 is that Congressional mandates to drive science tend to produce great innovation and cheaper solutions to problems. Our experience with the cap-and-trade exchange is that such programs are successful in helping control pollution.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/15/taking_liberties/entry5314040.shtml

    If there is a cheaper, cleaner, and better way to make energy, then eventually it will be accepted. But politicians should be careful about manipulating the market to create manufactured demand.

    Declan McCullugh, the CBS blogger (this is not a news story) ought to know better than to cite the group calling itself the Competitive Enterprise Institute. That’s Stephen Milloy’s group of anti-government, pro-DDT, former tobacco lobbyists and other tellers of untruths. McCullugh calls them libertarian, but I’d be tempted to use “libertine” especially when it comes to their dealing with facts and science.

    CEI hasn’t been right on any of this stuff. This is the group that paid for the shameful “CO2 is necessary for life” ads.

    What was your point there?

    Innovation will occur with or without goverment intervention.

    Our experience since 1776 is that pollution control will come when the government requires it, and not a moment earlier. There’s a well-known document on this issue, “The Tragedy of the Commons.” Innovation may come without government requiring it — but not in pollution control.

    I almost prefer English common law on the point, which would have made it absolutely impossible for someone to pollute the air, had it been applied earlier. Carbon emitters would be deemed nuisances, and injunctions would force them to stop all operations unless they worked out a plan to pay each downwind property holder. One of the reasons industry came around on the Clean Air Act was because many companies were forced to try to make such downwind arrangements, and they prefer the less expensive and less troublesome regulatory route. (See, if you can find it, the stories of US Steel’s Geneva works in Geneva, Utah, and their payments to celery farmers, dairy farmers and others for fluoride pollution, and the bizarre incidents of “sciff” pollution (sciff is small, airborne particles of carbon that result from pouring molten steel; the carbon acts as activated charcoal, and soaks up anything farmers put on their crops, including fertilizers and pesticides).

    But my principal objection is that CEI is chiefly a bunch of wankers. Many of those people stood firm with the tobacco companies, arguing tobacco smoke was not harmful. I have no doubt some of them still believe it, even after the papers showing that their own scientists knew much better have been public domain for years.

    The question becomes whether or not innovation will come soon enough to avoid serious global changes. This is where Al Gore and his buddies are needed to incite fear in people. If people are patient, then they will wait for the innovation to occur. If people are afriad, they will allow politicians to “do whats right.”

    So you’re willing to sit by and see if the world comes to smash if we’re too late, understanding that it’s your children and grandchildren who will bear the brunt of the harms — but what the heck, you’ll be long gone, eh?

    Gore’s been solid on his citations of research. I would prefer to call it knowledge-based policy making, but if you want to call it “inciting fear,” I suppose you can do that. Knowledge is better than ignorance, and if knowledge makes on think pollution cleanup is important, that’s good. You may be among those who think “fear of God” means Christians should cower to God, too. Putting spin on the label of the stuff doesn’t change the fact that it’s knowledge that motivates the cleanup action.

  202. Ed Darrell Says:

    Well Ed more data that doesn’t fit with your paradigm.

    It’s data, Hexmate. You offered none. You gave a list of glaciers. Each one I checked, I found a story about how warming has made it smaller and less massive, with a couple of small exceptions.

    I let the data form my views, not the other way around. If you have some data, why not bring it here? You’ve failed to do that.

    I offered the link to the University of Alaska site which directly contradicted your claim. I gave you the courtesy of checking your claims. You owe readers here the same courtesy at least.

    Your carping is a clanging bell, especially when you offer no arugments from the stuff you link to, and you apparently can’t explain the stuff, you know?

  203. Ed Darrell Says:

    But this is not about Al Gore, or shrinking glaciers. Its about the continuation of a healthy environment that supports human life and biodiversity. The fact is that no matter what scientists say about what has happened or is happening, they know very little about what will happen or how soon it will happen.

    Then follow the guys with the track records. Al Gore’s record is solid.

    Oh, but you don’t like arguments from authority, even sound authority. If there is countervailing evidence with data, authority alone won’t cut it. But if we’re taking authority, Gore’s authority is better than almost everybody else’s. His data are better, too. He’s been at this issue, seriously, for a lot longer than just since the publication of his book in 1992. Gore’s got a huge head start in accumulating evidence, and being right.

    Then look at what we do know. The physics of warming is absolutely incontrovertible. The degree to which warming occurs is not solid — but let’s be clear that failing to trust what we do know about climate and weather is a bad gamble against what we do know about pollution and climate. Sure there is a lot we don’t know. That’s poor reason to disregard what we know to be accurate.

    We’ve been changing our climate with air pollution for 200 years. The body of science backing the policy decision to act to curb carbon emissions and do other things to preserve the planet is solidly grounded. Surely you don’t mean to argue that denuding the Amazon forest is a good idea — and yet, if we were to do nothing, that is exactly where we’d be going.

    We know better. We know a lot more about air pollution than you claim. We’ve already watched huge industries that depend on clean air go bust, like the $1 billion cut flower industry in the Los Angeles Basin (1954 dollars, by the way). Ozone. Industry critics said the science was uncertain, that ozone was “natural” and that ozone killed bacteria (true) — and that ozone wiped out the cut flower industry (watch the Rose Bowl Parade some year, and notice that none of the flowers come from Los Angeles and Pasadena any more, in the Tournament of Roses which was created as a platform to show off locally-grown flowers).

    Or go hike the Oquirrh Mountains from the Great Salt Lake south to Utah County sometime. Be careful of the acid in the soil. 100 years ago you couldn’t have made that hike for the oak and maple forest that stood too thick to walk through. It wasn’t cut down. It died, and its stumps were eaten away, from SO2 pollution.

    Or compare the air in Los Angeles in 1960 with the air there today.

    There is much left to learn. That is not the same thing as saying we don’t know anything, and that we don’t have great experience in air pollution science.

    The problem with cap and trade is that it punishes the creators of cheap, affordable energy, and invests in unproven technology.

    No energy is cheap if it pollutes. It’s unfair to allow businessmen to profit by dumping garbage into your lungs. It’s also deadly to children of others, kids who deserve clean air and a chance at life.

    Cap and trade is more than fair, and profitable, to those industries who invest in clean air technology and are successful. It allows clean industry to make profit on being clean — and that’s good.

    Cap and trade seems to have worked well in the U.S. over the last decade or so. If it doesn’t work, why is the exchange going as well as it is? You offer not an iota of evidence, economic, scientific, nor even a business claim, to suggest cap and trade won’t work. In the meantime, go here, and get some real data on cap-and-trade, and the Climate Exchange, which I wager you weren’t aware is operating and as old as it is. Robert P. Murphy’s piece is highly critical — but it’s countermanded by the success of the exchange. Don’t ignore the work of the Nobel-winning economist cited there, either.

    If we want to seriously alter emmisions in this country, we would be building nuclear power plants to supply power for the entire nation. Funny thing is I dont hear Al or Ed talking about nuclear power.

    Nuclear is fine, if done carefully. Funny thing, I don’t hear you stepping up to talk about either safety or security. I haven’t addressed it hear because this isn’t a discussion about nuclear power nor our entire energy future. Funny thing, there’s no reason to go nuclear if there’s no warming — and Hexmate is arguing against a need for nuclear power (why don’t you ding him on that? Oh, yeah, you’re not looking that far down the road).

    They talk about solar, wind, and water power, none of which are sufficiently developed to replace coal.

    Now you’re making things up. I haven’t addressed any of those in this discussion. You’re accusing me of not doing things I’ve done, of not holding positions I defend, and of having positions I’ve never had. If you want to discuss nuclear power, especially in terms of reducing global warming, be my guest. Got anything to say?

    If there is no human-caused global warming, there’s no need for the much-more-expensive option of nuclear power for a coal-rich nation. Which claim are you going to defend in the end, the one you defend now, or the one you accuse me of not making?

    Ed, you also ignored my comments on cap and trade (Hexmate must have consumed your thoughts).

    I have a real job and real stuff to do, and other fish to fry on other issues. I didn’t think your arguments particularly strongly evidenced or well formed then (a justified judgment, it appears). I don’t think you made a prima facie case that required a response.

    Cap and trade has been tried in other countries and had some devastating economical effects with very little impact on pollution.

    Oh, now don’t start out claiming I’ve provided no documentation, and then posit that stinking mass of a claim without backup. What country has cap-and-trade been tried in without success? Why should we assume that example — if it exists — overcomes the live experience we’ve already had with trading in pollution credits in the U.S.? Look at those sources I cited in the piece linked above, and tell me why they are in error, especially if you don’t have the goods against cap and trade in other places.

    Ed, although you may deny my reasoning or say that I do not respect opposing views, Im afraid that you are the one who does not respect the opposing view point. In fact, I agree with much of what you say but only debate the timing and severity of the events.

    I don’t respect half-baked claims based on yammering bloggers and cheap political back stabbing.

    Hexmate has done nothing to defend the grotesque film this thread is nominally about, nor the fantastic, reeking and steaming falsehoods the producers plopped into the punchbowl. If you’re going to defend accuracy in politics, science, pollution control and economics, there are much bigger and more deserving targets here than my claims. How about helping me clear some of the fog?

    I also have great respect for human ingnorance, and realize that the global climate is currently beyond human understanding.

    We pushed science with the Clean Air Act. Industry screamed bloody murder that there was no way to control SO2 and NOx emissions from autos. By the deadlines Congress demanded, we had the catalytic converter, and Los Angeles and much of the rest of the nation breathe a lot easier. They said there was no science to justify getting lead out of gasoline, but we did it and our nation is, literally, a lot smarter — lead poisoning of children gets their brains first.

    I’m confident we are not bound to be victims of outrageous fortune, but that we can instead have a large hand in directing our fate.

    Im not suggesting, Ed, that “warmers” are wrong but I insist that they make speculations. We all speculate. Neither side has a monopoly on the truth. Sorry to burst your bubble.

    Dr. Pat Frank is right, I think, in pointing out the limitations of science right now in establishing the culprit behind global warming. We can’t do it beyond a reasonable doubt. But this is not a case in criminal law (yet), and that’s not a good standard to use for environmental protection. The preponderance of the evidence (the civil tort standard) is well met. Under criminal law O. J. Simpson goes free; under the preponderance of the evidence standard, he’s liable. I don’t think we should treat polluters who kill tens of thousands better than we treat O.J., especially when it comes to preventing future deaths.

    (the two links in my last post are serious challenges to some of Ed’s sentiment, this is his blog and he will take the shots that are easiest for him, real life is not wiffle ball)

    I didn’t find them serious challenges, and I don’t have the time to track down your case and make it for you before rebutting it. How are they serious challenges?

  204. Ed Darrell Says:

    Also, you made a confusing comment about his investments not making him any money? You fail to understand that when people (including Gore) invest capital into a project, they need that project to succeed in order to make other investments and to support future projects. They also need to advertise (propoganda) their project so that they can attract customers and more investors. You express a very naive view of business and politics. Its not necessary that Gore puts the money in HIS bank account, but the idea of profit is still the same.

    Don’t lecture me about Al Gore’s finances until you understand them. Fair?

    I didn’t say his investments won’t make him money. I said he doesn’t profit from his advocacy to end global warming and other climate change. Hexmate has made scurrilous and false claims (that you have not asked him to document) claiming Gore is just doing this stuff to make money.

    That’s bull excrement, and you’d know it if you knew anything about politics, finance, or climate change.

    Of course Gore profits from private investments. He’s a lot smarter than you or I, and he’s always put his money where his mouth is. I said he won’t make any money if warming is false. That’s accurate.

    Gore’s made a lot of good investments over the years. That he’s so smart should be a clue that you’d do well to pay attention to what he says, and how he invests. He walks his talk. He’s in a highly regulated investment area where any false claim on his part opens him to stockholder suits and criminal prosecution, unlike Hexmate who can make wild and false claims with impunity.

    In short, Gore is required to be honest. That his investments are also profitable is testament to his honesty and farsightedness — and to his accuracy on warming issues.

    Here, in a few paragraphs out of The Guardian, you can learn more about Gore’s investments than you need to know, and if you’re a discerning person, you’ll get insight into his wisdom and honor, too:

    Al Gore’s Good Investments

    Al Gore, the former US vice-president,has always had a knack for picking the next hot tip. He backed Google before its stockmarket debut and put money into Apple. He has also invested in organic food, mainly through Whole Foods, which owns Fresh & Wild.

    His investment firm, Generation Investment Management, has offices in London, Sydney and New York. Sustainable businesses in which he or the firm has invested include:

    Ausra, a leading provider of solar thermal energy systems for industrial processeswith headquarters in Mountain View, California.

    New Resource Bank, a San Francisco bank focused on customer service while building sustainable resources.

    Camco, a UK firm that develops greenhouse gas emission reduction projects.

    It also provides carbon and sustainable development consultancy services, including emissions assessment, carbon management and strategy and policy work, to companies and governments.

    Novo Nordisk, the world’s largest insulin maker, based in Denmark.

    Johnson Controls, the largest maker of automotive seats and batteries.

    Current TV, a cable channel on which viewers can broadcast their own video clips.

  205. Ed Darrell Says:

    Ed, you provide no support for your claims about Al Gore’s charitable contributions or his investments. That is a serious weakness on your part.

    This isn’t a formal debate. But let me point out that no one has provided an iota of evidence to support the scurrilous claim Gore is personally profiting from any of this.

    Making up false claims aimed at the reputation of a man I know to be honorable, a fine father, and one of the best legislators in the past 50 years, is not my idea of an argument that requires full documentation in rebuttal. Take your complaints to Hexmate, and dare him to put any substance behind his scurrilous claims, will you?

    Nor have you suggested why I should be held to a higher standard.

    Have you bothered to look into the issue at all?

    A Google search turns up solid sources quickly:
    1. Philanthropy.com: http://philanthropy.com/news/philanthropytoday/3240/al-gore-to-donate-half-of-nobel-prize-money-to-charity
    2. New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/13/world/13nobel.html?_r=1&hp

    Gore distinguished himself, to me, when he put the world on hold and spent two years helping his son recover from a tragic accident. It would have been easy for Gore to have simply turned over the recovery aid to paid surrogates, to professional medical people, to counselors and other high-dollar healers. But he did it himself, instead, delaying and maybe ending his political career. It’s what outstanding fathers do for their families. Gore is a man of extremely high character.

    If you’ve worked with good people on important projects, you’ll appreciate the strong character and high values of the man. If you oppose what he does, but you’re a human of character and virtue yourself, you’ll also recognize that Gore is an extremely honorable man.

    I don’t get a sense that you were a campaigner for organ transplants, nor for clean air for the nation, nor for a plan to clean up polluted communities. Anyone in any of those fights over the past 40 years has a load of thanks to Gore.

    When his father became an outspoken critic of the Vietnam War, Al volunteered for the U.S. Army. As the son of a senator, he could have stayed out of any potential line of harm, like Pat Robertson did. Gore volunteered to go to Vietnam instead.

    When everybody else gave up on ARPANET, Al Gore alone went to bat to save it, and we have the internet today.

    What part of character and honor do you think is not clear to his critics? Criticism of Gore is a greater commentary to the hole in the hearts of his critics than it is commentary on Gore’s life.

    And isn’t telling? In a futile attempt to defend a horrid movie based on inaccurate and scurrilous claims, unable to defend the crappy science and false claims of the movie, critics try to turn things into a comedy routine on Al Gore. Gore’s an easy target — anyone poking fun at him won’t be pushed to justify the scurrilous claims, and even more fair people, like you, will demand documentation of the good Gore does, while giving an absolute pass to such demands for those who make the scurrilous claims.

    If Al Gore were a serial adulterer who invested in child pornography, cheap handguns and terrorist groups like Eagle Forum, it wouldn’t change the facts that Rachel Carson was right about DDT, warming is happening, and greenhouse gases should be cleaned up.

  206. Moderation Says:

    Ed, you provide no support for your claims about Al Gore’s charitable contributions or his investments. That is a serious weakness on your part.

    Also, you made a confusing comment about his investments not making him any money? You fail to understand that when people (including Gore) invest capital into a project, they need that project to succeed in order to make other investments and to support future projects. They also need to advertise (propoganda) their project so that they can attract customers and more investors. You express a very naive view of business and politics. Its not necessary that Gore puts the money in HIS bank account, but the idea of profit is still the same.

    But this is not about Al Gore, or shrinking glaciers. Its about the continuation of a healthy environment that supports human life and biodiversity. The fact is that no matter what scientists say about what has happened or is happening, they know very little about what will happen or how soon it will happen.

    The problem with cap and trade is that it punishes the creators of cheap, affordable energy, and invests in unproven technology.

    If we want to seriously alter emmisions in this country, we would be building nuclear power plants to supply power for the entire nation. Funny thing is I dont hear Al or Ed talking about nuclear power. They talk about solar, wind, and water power, none of which are sufficiently developed to replace coal.

    Ed, you also ignored my comments on cap and trade (Hexmate must have consumed your thoughts). Cap and trade has been tried in other countries and had some devastating economical effects with very little impact on pollution.

    Ed, although you may deny my reasoning or say that I do not respect opposing views, Im afraid that you are the one who does not respect the opposing view point. In fact, I agree with much of what you say but only debate the timing and severity of the events.

    I also have great respect for human ingnorance, and realize that the global climate is currently beyond human understanding. Im not suggesting, Ed, that “warmers” are wrong but I insist that they make speculations. We all speculate. Neither side has a monopoly on the truth. Sorry to burst your bubble.

    (the two links in my last post are serious challenges to some of Ed’s sentiment, this is his blog and he will take the shots that are easiest for him, real life is not wiffle ball)

  207. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “While that would allow more than the one I know of in Europe, 90% warming-caused decline isn’t exactly a figure you denialists should gloat over. It’s like being “just a little pregnant.”

    Ed your preganant? No I think this really describes you acurately.

    Those who jumped on the Global Bandwagon early on are now in a difficult position. Many are now searching for a way to back out quietly, without having their professional careers ruined. Others are continuing to miss-quote all the bad “science” on the subject, desperate to perpetuate what appears now to be only a myth. The Popular Journalists would starve if folks stopped reading their global hysteria books, and if folks stopped believing that Global Warming is man-made, they’ll have to find some new themes on catastrophic events and sell us on the idea that we’re to blame.

  208. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “And, even if a few glaciers are growing, that doesn’t negate warming.”

    More data Ed. Where is yours at?

    Al Gore tells us the Greenland ice cap is thinning, but he doesn’t mention that a newly discovered volcanic “hot spot” may be a contributor, along with warming on the coast due to warmer waters coming up the gulf stream. In general, we found growing glaciers outpacing melting glaciers by a good margin. Nothing like cherry-picking an isolated example to create panic, Al

    Strange but the research turned up a completely different story. It found 50 glaciers are advancing in New Zealand, others are growing in Alaska, Switzerland, the Himalayas, and even our old friend, Mt. St. Helens is sprouting a brand new crater glacier that is advancing at 3 feet per year.
    And down south last September, NASA satellites showed the Antarctic Ice Field to be the largest it has ever been in the 30 years it has been observed by satellite (based on an analysis of 347 million radar altimeter measurements made by the European Space Agency’s ERS-1 and ERS-2 satellites).

  209. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Gore makes no money from his speeches.� All the fees go to charity.”

    No Ed, this is what really happens. There’s still time for everyone to “save” the planet by buying “carbon offsets” accomplished best by investing in Al Gore’s British company which buys stock in other companies that will benefit from a world-wide global warming hysteria (keeping a healthy cut) and making, perhaps, Al Gore the richest former Vice President in history. That will buy a lot of SUV’s, jets, and large mansions with mega-electric bills. Everyone wins except the taxpayer and businessman, who are soon to pay a very heavy price.

  210. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “the SEC gets him (Gore)in the U.S. and the British equivalent gets him in the UK, and he goes to jail.”

    That is really rich Ed. Weren’t these the same people watching Madoff, AIG, Lehman Brothers, etc. Nothing likely to happen especially since Gore can manuplate the government, etc.

  211. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “And as best I can tell, you’ve given us a list of advancing glaciers, but not growing glaciers. Hubbard might be an exception, but the glaciologists say Hubbard doesn’t contradict warming.”

    Well Ed more data that doesn’t fit with your paradigm.

    “Another part of global warming theory ‘topples’
    Thomas Lifson

    The fragile and tentative nature of climate science is once again on display, this time via “new data of novel high precision”, obtained by glacier researchers in New Zealand, utilizing radioactive isotopes in studying behavior of a glacier in that country. The New Zealand Herald reports

    The first direct confirmation of differences in glacier behaviour between the Northern and Southern Hemispheres, the new work topples theories based on climate in the Northern Hemisphere changing in tandem with the climate in the Southern Hemisphere.

    The research argues that at times the climate in both hemispheres evolved in sync and at other times it evolved differently in different parts of the world. …

    The paper published in Science magazine yesterday showed the Mt Cook glaciers advanced to their maximum length 6500 years ago, and have been smaller ever since.

    But glaciers in the Swiss Alps advanced to their maximum only in the past 700 years – during the Northern Hemisphere’s “Little Ice Age”, which ended about 1860.

    During some warm periods in Europe, glaciers were advancing in New Zealand. At other times, glaciers were well advanced in both areas.

    In a commentary which accompanied the research, Greg Balco, from the Berkeley Geochronology Centre in California, said the conclusion that glacier advances in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres were not synchronised was “unexpected”.

    When data are unexpected, they reveal flaws in the models being used by scientists. The models touted by Al Gore, the investor betting big bucks on carbon regulation and trading, don’t begin to capture the complexity of global climate.”

  212. Ed Darrell Says:

    When people say that Gore stands to profit from Global Warming issues they mean that he makes a lot of money talking and investing in global warming projects. So the more people believe in global warming, the more money Gore will make.

    So, you mean that when people saying that, they are talking through their hats and not looking where they are going.

    Gore makes no money from his speeches. All the fees go to charity. On his investments, also, Gore makes no money except his science is accurate — otherwise it’s fraud, and the SEC gets him the U.S. and the British equivalent gets him in the UK, and he goes to jail.

    I realize now that these people are not only not so bright as they think, and woefully ill-informed, but they also lack common sense and the kind of charity a human being gives to someone who genuinely holds a contrary view. They must know at some level their charge against Gore is pure folderol, but they make it anyway, hoping everybody else has less sense than they.

    Gore on the other hand demonstrates a great deal of charity (and backs it with money), and displays the courage of his convictions by investing where other investors claimed no money could be made.

    What’s left after the Nobel — canonization? As you describe him, he’s on that plane.

  213. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “One post you claim Gore’s a savvy investor, the next post you claim he’s not. Will you make up your mind?”

    Ed it has everything to do with manipulating the system versus being a businessman or a shrewd investor. As long as Gore can control the situation greed will work for him.

  214. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “One post you claim Gore’s a savvy investor, the next post you claim he’s not. Will you make up your mind?”

    Ed he is a savvy investor when he can CONTROL the situation but you forgot to notice what happens if he can’t control it and the governments don’t go along with his scam. He is going to pissed when that happens and it might wipe him out.

  215. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “And, even if a few glaciers are growing, that doesn’t negate warming.”

    Well Ed of course not you are in denial. You forgot to include your data too.

  216. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “I also expect some analysis of why CO2 fails to act like the greenhouse gas it is when you deny that there is warming, and not some junk pulled out of where the sun don’t shine.”

    Ed it is becoming quit apparent that you have a serious case of rectal cranial inversion. You should get to your doctor right away and it examined before you get an infection.

  217. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “I also expect some analysis of why CO2 fails to act like the greenhouse gas it is when you deny that there is warming, and not some junk pulled out of where the sun don’t shine.”

    Ed you are denying what the experts are saying? But you can’t counter with your own data. Well isn’t that a double standard you have?

  218. Ed Darrell Says:

    And, even if a few glaciers are growing, that doesn’t negate warming:

    Some glaciers in Pakistan’s Upper Indus River Basin appear to be growing, and a new study suggests that global warming is the cause.

    The glacial growth bucks a global trend of shrinking ice fields (photos: melting glaciers) and may shed light on the regionally varying effects of Earth’s changing climate.

    Meteorological data compiled over the past century show that winter temperatures have been rising in parts of the Western Himalaya, Karakoram, and Hindu Kush mountain ranges (map of Pakistan).

    But the region’s winter snowfall, which feeds the glaciers, has been increasing. And average summer temperatures, which melt snow and glaciers, have been dropping.

    “One of the surprising results we found was a downward trend in summer temperatures,” said David Archer, study co-author and a hydrologist at Newcastle University in the United Kingdom.

    “That seems to be at odds with what people would expect, given the news about glaciers melting in the Eastern Himalaya.” (Read “Himalaya Ice-Melt Threat Monitored in Nepal” [March 2006].)

    The combination of reduced summer melt and more winter snowfall could account for glacial growth, according to work to be published by Archer and colleagues in an upcoming issue of the American Meteorological Society’s Journal of Climate. </blockquote

    None of which has anything to do with "Not Evil, Just Wrong's" manifold errors.

  219. Ed Darrell Says:

    Ed said: “Out of all the glaciers on Earth, one is growing in mass, and that appears due to lake effect snows.”

    And as best I can tell, you’ve given us a list of advancing glaciers, but not growing glaciers. Hubbard might be an exception, but the glaciologists say Hubbard doesn’t contradict warming.

    “It is true that there are several glaciers in Alaska that are advancing, but their advance has nothing to do with climate change,” said Roman Motyka, a Geophysical Institute glaciologist who works out of Juneau. “In Southeast Alaska, over 90 percent of the glaciers are retreating and thinning, and the rates have accelerated in recent years.”

    “The general long-term trend for glaciers in Alaska is one of sustained mass loss,” said Shad O’Neal, A USGS glaciologist who also studies Icy Bay glaciers and is based at the USGS Alaska Science Center in Anchorage. “While we have seen short term fluctuations like a heavy snow year and seasonal advance-retreat cycles, only a few tidewater glaciers are gaining mass over longer time scales, and these are exceptions, not the norm.”

    See this post from the Geophysical Institute at the University of Alaska for details.

    They argue that no fewer than 90% of the world’s glaciers are in global-warming-caused retreat and decline.

    While that would allow more than the one I know of in Europe, 90% warming-caused decline isn’t exactly a figure you denialists should gloat over. It’s like being “just a little pregnant.”

  220. Ed Darrell Says:

    Ed Gore is not a businessman – he never has been. He’s politician.

    One post you claim Gore’s a savvy investor, the next post you claim he’s not. Will you make up your mind?

  221. Ed Darrell Says:

    I’m putting mine out there but you won’t accept it. Like I said it doesn’t fit your mental model.

    I suppose that’s true. For carbon dioxide, for example, I expect a real measurement, in parts per million. You’ve offered no figure at all.

    I also expect some analysis of why CO2 fails to act like the greenhouse gas it is when you deny that there is warming, and not some junk pulled out of where the sun don’t shine.

    You’re right, what you’ve offered doesn’t fit my mental model of what data should be.

    Nor does it fit anyone else’s model, either.

  222. Hexmate Says:

    Ed – you are getting your butt kicked here on this website maybe you should find a new hobby, something productive would be advantagous. Pick up your little buddy Nick and see if you can find something that will keep both of you occupied.

  223. Hexmate Says:

    So Ed you want to talk about veterans again? You seem to chose to use term when you feel it is convenient or suites your diatribe. The real truth is you don’t have clue what that means or what it is all about. Freedom isn’t free Ed so you should be wary about throwing that term around to suit your needs.

  224. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “I’m not God. You have no data.”

    Ed I know you’re not that is why I said you need data which you cannot produce. I’m putting mine out there but you won’t accept it. Like I said it doesn’t fit your mental model.

  225. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Gore doesn’t benefit from talking about warming… and Gore makes money if he tells the truth…”

    Well not exactly Ed. Ed, either you are so naive that you believe everything Al Gore says or you just got caught with your pants down again… don’t look now Ed but your pants are down around your ankles. Don’t bend over to get the soap either.

    What isn’t debatable is that Gore will gain more than most. Gore has cast his net in green technology. Potentially the most lucrative source of cash flow for Gore is his partnership in the venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, which this year formed two funds that will invest $1.2 billion in environmentally friendly companies. Gore is also co-founder and chairman of London-based Generation Investment Management that collaborates with Kleiner Perkins on seeking out investments in “sustainability.” He’s also invested $35 million in a hedge fund, Capricorn Investment Group, LLC, of Palo Alto, California. Founded by former eBay president Jeff Skoll (who helped bankroll An Inconvenient Truth), Capricorn invests its clients’ funds in makers of eco-friendly products.

    But financial analysts say investors are not making a rational assessment of their companies’ profit-making potential. They are making a political bet as well, calculating that government regulation will help green-tech companies even though it hurts other firms.

    You might remember that Al Gore said he bought carbon offsets to make up for his energy-hogging mansion in Tennessee: In 2006 – the year his movie was released – Gore’s house used about 221,000 kilowatt hours of power, more than 20 times the national average, and his electric bill was $12,000 per month.

    The prospect of carbon regulation is why major corporations have latched onto Gore. He is the environmental movement’s bullhorn to the world, proclaiming the crisis of planetary warming. But the truth is that Gore also has become a bullhorn for corporations that are ready to cash in on the hysteria.

    Gore, with his long history of alarmist environmental advocacy appears to be a true believer, but no one can deny that his climate cause hasn’t contributed to his growing fortune. He has a financial stake in what Congress decides about regulating greenhouse gases and is every bit as self-interested as an ExxonMobil lobbyist.

    Gore and the global warming crowd are usually quick to challenge the credibility and sincerity of any scientist, climatologist or policy organization skeptical of man-made global warming. They call skeptics “shills” for Big Oil or, worse, “deniers,” invoking the term used against anti-Semites who deny the Holocaust. But they refuse to acknowledge their own growing financial interest in the carbon control industry.

    These are facts Ed! Where are your facts Ed? You don’t have any?

  226. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Note the parts of her speech where she documents that opposition is not based in science, but rather is based in politics-driven propaganda theory. Had you bothered to listen, you’d note that she documents the dates and publications where warming deniers abandon science.”

    Okay Ed then here are some people who don’t agree. The noted physicist Hal Lewis (emeritus at the University of California, Santa Barbara) and several fellow scientists, including physicists Will Happer and Robert Austin of Princton, Laurence Gould of the University of Hartford, and climate scientist Richard Lindzen of MIT, have sent to Congress. “The sky is not falling,” they write. Far from warming, “the Earth has been cooling for 10 years” — a trend that “was not predicted by the alarmists’ computer models. Then there is John Christy an accomplished climate scientist with no ties to Big Oil who has produced reams and reams of data that undermine arguments that the earth’s atmosphere is warming at an unusual rate and question whether the remedies being talked about in Congress will actually do any good.

    Hundreds of scientists reject the alarmist narrative. For non-experts, a steadily-widening shelf of excellent books surveys the data in laymen’s terms and exposes the weaknesses in the doomsday scenario — among others, Climate Confusion by Roy W. Spencer, Climate of Fear by Thomas Gale Moore, Taken by Storm, by Christopher Essex and Ross McKitrick, and Unstoppable Global Warming: Every 1,500 Years, by S. Fred Singer and Dennis Avery. Get busy Ed you have a lot of reading to do.

  227. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Gore’s acumen as a businessman should tell you about his ability to see trends and capitalize on them.”

    Ed Gore is not a businessman – he never has been. He’s politician.

  228. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “As I noted earlier, your claims about that are false. Gore doesn’t benefit from talking about warming except in the instant that he can convince people to try to save the Earth. Gore’s acumen as a businessman should tell you about his ability to see trends and capitalize on them. Warren Buffet invests the same way, and he stands to make much more money than Al Gore on such investments — and yet, you wouldn’t dream of claiming Buffet to be dishonest, or profiteering.”

    Funny Ed but the facts dispute your claim. One only need look at Bore’s… uh Gore’s bank account.

  229. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “So you refuse to look at the facts, Hexmate? I wish I were surprised.”

    Show me some Ed and maybe you might begin to gain some integrity.

  230. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Out of all the glaciers on Earth, one is growing in mass, and that appears due to lake effect snows.”

    Ed you wouldn’t know the truth if it bit you in the behind. You are so politically tainted that you only see and believe what you want to believe. Like your statement above. Which by the way is incorrect.

    Perito Moreno glacier is growing at an astounding rate of 6.6 feet per day. Interestingly Perito Moreno is not the only glacier that is growing. There are dozens of them:
    NORWAY
    Ålfotbreen Glacier
    Briksdalsbreen Glacier
    Nigardsbreen Glacier
    Hardangerjøkulen Glacier
    Hansebreen Glacier
    Jostefonn Glacier
    Engabreen glacier
    CANADA
    Helm Glacier
    Place Glacier
    France
    Mt. Blanc
    ECUADOR
    Antizana 15 Alpha Glacier
    SWITZERLAND
    Silvretta Glacier
    KIRGHIZTAN
    Abramov
    RUSSIA
    Maali Glacier
    The Hubbard Glacier near Yakutat, Alaska, for example, is growing at an even faster rate than the Perito Moreno — 7 feet per day. This glacier is growing so fast that it will soon close the Russell Fjord, thereby creating a 30-mile-long freshwater lake (the future “Russell Lake”).

  231. Moderation Says:

    Ed, let me help you with some things.

    When global warming critics say “closing down industry” they are refering to statements such as the one by Obama – “My policies will bankrupt the coal industry.” Its a simple connection that you should be able to make.

    When people say that Gore stands to profit from Global Warming issues they mean that he makes a lot of money talking and investing in global warming projects. So the more people believe in global warming, the more money Gore will make. Despite your charitable characterization of Mr. Gore, his net worth has greatly increased. I would imagine that he doesnt fly around in his private jet and give speeches for free, does he? Also, one company that he is invested in was given favourable treatment my the government over other companies. So he uses his political connections for his own financial benefit. Lets agree that his motives are not as pure as they might appear.

    The most accurate description would be “global climate change” and not “global warming” since recent measurements indicate a slight decline in global temperatures over the last decade. This may be due to melting ice which may be caused by human activity.

    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/74019.html

    The fact is that the global climate is a very complex thing and anyone who says that they can explain it all is lying. I know that human activity has negative effects on the environment. That is beyond questioning. But the significance of the effects, the consequences, and the proposed solutions can all be debated.

    Consider the cap and trade bill. Some US politicians think that by increasing the cost of pollution, there will be an incentive to produce cleaner energy. This is a sound statement. But at the same time, the price of energy and goods will increase because they will cost more to make. This is effectively a tax on everyone. It makes business less competitive, atleast in the short term, and could have serious economic consequences.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/15/taking_liberties/entry5314040.shtml

    If there is a cheaper, cleaner, and better way to make energy, then eventually it will be accepted. But politicians should be careful about manipulating the market to create manufactured demand.

    Innovation will occur with or without goverment intervention. The question becomes whether or not innovation will come soon enough to avoid serious global changes. This is where Al Gore and his buddies are needed to incite fear in people. If people are patient, then they will wait for the innovation to occur. If people are afriad, they will allow politicians to “do whats right.”

  232. guy Says:

    global warming is a fraud, cap and trade is a HUGE scam and so is Al Gore, evil scumbag/

  233. Ed Darrell Says:

    Sorry Ed, there are no facts presented here, or wherever you wanted me go read this about Oreskes’ hypothesis about global warming;

    Oreskes studies history. She has no hypothesis about warming, but she records what scientists say and do, and when. As she notes, in much of the history of science that I lived doing air pollution research, there is broad consensus about air pollution causing massive problems. This science was a key and keen driver of the Clean Air Act, its small-step predecessors and its amendments since.

    If you find nothing there of use, you are, as Santayana warned, doomed to repeat the grotesque errors of history.

    Some people don’t know history, and repeat the blunders out of ignorance; some people think they know history, and repeat the blunders out of hubris (Hitler invading Russia on the same day Napoleon invaded puts a spotlight on that type of error); those who refuse to study what is laid out before them get no immunity from Orpheus or any other god that protects them from the errors of history.

    So you refuse to look at the facts, Hexmate? I wish I were surprised.

    . . . along with the fact that it is supposedly man made. Her survey data is now out of date because the number of people who believe that global warming is real has slipped from 72% to 57%.

    Note the parts of her speech where she documents that opposition is not based in science, but rather is based in politics-driven propaganda theory. Had you bothered to listen, you’d note that she documents the dates and publications where warming deniers abandon science.

    If one is not concerned with people, with the future of the Earth we leave to our children and grandchildren, then any politically-driven position on science is as good as another. Those who don’t believe in ethics are doubly doomed if they don’t know history, I believe.

    If global warming were the case then all of the glaciers would be melting and there would be many other significant data points to present that would support this claim.

    Out of all the glaciers on Earth, one is growing in mass, and that appears due to lake effect snows.

    You state a point of science that you claim would make the case, but you deny all the data. Sen. Patrick Moynihan said that we are entitled to our opinions about the facts, but we are not entitled to our own private set of facts. I think he was right.

    She spends a lot of time discrediting those who oppose her view and does so based on a diatribe about their work for RJR.

    Significant history on three points: One, it shows that science has been subverted, to the harm of millions of individuals and society as a whole, in the past. Two, it demonstrates the methodology by which public relations can be used to cover up the facts, to hide the truth from innocent citizens, and to convince them to act contrary to their own good and the good of the greater community. Three, it demonstrates that many of the early deniers consciously adopted those tactics fully aware that they were acting contrary to science, and counting that they could find a group of sheep-like people who would follow them fervently over the cliff.

    Lessons there, for the alert and wary.

    I find that consistent with the association with Al Gore and his work to enrich himself from global warming theory to the point he is now worth $100 million.

    As I noted earlier, your claims about that are false. Gore doesn’t benefit from talking about warming except in the instant that he can convince people to try to save the Earth. Gore’s acumen as a businessman should tell you about his ability to see trends and capitalize on them. Warren Buffet invests the same way, and he stands to make much more money than Al Gore on such investments — and yet, you wouldn’t dream of claiming Buffet to be dishonest, or profiteering.

    Gore makes money if he tells the truth, in a highly regulated industry where not revealing all the facts is considered reason enough for a court to take away all profits, and where criminal sanctions tend to catch up to high-fliers without facts. In addition to Gore’s businesses being regulated fully by the SEC and FTC, anything he does in the area of protecting against global warming is regulated by the CFTC and even EPA.

    Do you have a case? You are obligated to take that information to your local U.S. attorney and the CFTC.

    You haven’t made any case at all here, and we can tell from your bluster that you have no case to make.

    How, do you claim, would Al Gore make any money from his advocacy for environmental protection? He’s already donated his Nobel prize money, and any profits from his award-winning film.

    Make a case, if you can.

    >blockquote>In addition there are huge sums of money to be made off this hypothesis so these people are no different than the people who worked for RJR.

    Clean air is beneficial, but making money off of cleaning up the environment requires a lot of hard work. On the other hand, stealing clean air is also very profitable, and that’s what you’re arguing for.

    Hard work on one hand, larceny on the other. Why are you arguing for larceny? And aren’t you blushing at least a little when you do?

    So as my VP used to say, in God we trust; all others please bring data. That means you Ed.

    I’m not God. You have no data.

    The article at the top of this thread discusses on small area of gross error by the makers of this film, their bizarre claims about DDT. Each of their claims is amply documented to be in error.

    If the rest of their film is as wrong, it’s difficult to tell if they mean it as a parody. No one defends “Monty Python’s Life of Brian” as historical, nor as an alternative reading of scripture. But the makers of that film also did not make gross charges against the accuracy of scripture nor campaign to kill churches.

    I’m having a difficult time finding any reason to grant your claims credence. Can you make an argument based on fact? We have not seen it yet.

  234. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “The warming is indisputable.”

    No Ed it is disputable, but it doesn’t fit your mental model so you can’t accept anything else.

  235. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Listen to Oreskes’ lecture.”

    Sorry Ed, there are no facts presented here, or wherever you wanted me go read this about Oreskes’ hypothesis about global warming; along with the fact that it is supposedly man made. Her survey data is now out of date because the number of people who believe that global warming is real has slipped from 72% to 57%. If global warming were the case then all of the glaciers would be melting and there would be many other significant data points to present that would support this claim. She spends a lot of time discrediting those who oppose her view and does so based on a diatribe about their work for RJR. I find that consistent with the association with Al Gore and his work to enrich himself from global warming theory to the point he is now worth $100 million. In addition there are huge sums of money to be made off this hypothesis so these people are no different than the people who worked for RJR. So as my VP used to say, in God we trust; all others please bring data. That means you Ed.

  236. Ed Darrell Says:

    There is no global warming Ed.

    Listen to Oreskes’ lecture. She details the propaganda effort to hoodwink people into thinking there is no warming, just as they hoodwinked people into thinking cigarette smoking was not a health issue.

    The warming is indisputable. The only issue among scientists is the degree to which human actions are responsible. Of course, if one denies that warming occurs at all, one is ethically disqualified from the second discussion.

    Listen to Oreskes’ lecture.

  237. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Did you have a point to make in favor of allowing warming to continue?”

    There is no global warming Ed. That’s just your wet diaper you are wearing. Get it changed! Now do you have some point to make because thus far you haven’t PROVEN anything.

  238. Hexmate Says:

    Nick said: “*Yawns* let me know when you have something intelligent to say, Hex, instead of stupid conspiracy theories and ad hominen attacks that don’t even work. Sorry, did you think you were insulting me? You simply don’t have the ability or the intelligence to pull that off. You’re the child here, you’re the one arguing from sheer stupidity with no actual evidence to back your whackjob claims.”

    Nick don’t yawn like that. Nick you haven’t said anything intelligent in any post you have put up, now have you? Obviously you have a very high opinion of yourself without facts, data, or proof to back it up. I haven’t made any claims I just asked you to provide data that support your theory but you have none. So when you are done pontificating and are ready to display some intelligence I’m ready to look at it. Let’s see how smart you are boy!

  239. Nick Kelsier Says:

    *Yawns* let me know when you have something intelligent to say, Hex, instead of stupid conspiracy theories and ad hominen attacks that don’t even work. Sorry, did you think you were insulting me? You simply don’t have the ability or the intelligence to pull that off. You’re the child here, you’re the one arguing from sheer stupidity with no actual evidence to back your whackjob claims.

  240. Ed Darrell Says:

    Ed really – you converse with adults? You may post but you do not have the maturity necessary to actually carry on a conversation as evidence by your behavior. You don’t toy with me boy… I’m having a blast here!

    Did you have a point to make in favor of allowing warming to continue?

    You should watch this:
    http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2009/10/23/naomi-oreskes-the-lecture-lord-monckton-slept-through-which-he-hopes-you-will-not-see/

  241. Hexmate Says:

    Nick said: “I’m 34, child. Been living on my own for a long time. I just consider you a brainless idiot and see no reason to treat you with any respect or even as an adult. You’re a sociopathic liar and an idiot. Time for you to go away now.”

    Nick I didn’t know you were that demented. Usually, once you reach that age, you can demonstrate a higher level of maturity which leads me to believe you are lying or have serious behavioral problems that are preventing you from reaching full maturity. Have your mom and dad take you to see the doctor. Your accusation is rather amusing but correlates directly with the malady you are suffering from. It is interesting to observe the one demonstrating bad behavior try to turn the blame on to the other individual in order to protect them or set up a defensive shield. Nick I am not going away so you can relax. Now you 2 are going to be late for school if you’re not careful…don’t forget your lunch!

  242. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Hexmate, we converse with adults. We toy with you. Denialists are so predictable. Faced with facts, they turn to insult. Nick, I may post a “Do not feed the trolls” sign.”

    Ed really – you converse with adults? You may post but you do not have the maturity necessary to actually carry on a conversation as evidence by your behavior. You don’t toy with me boy… I’m having a blast here!

    I love it… denialists? Doesn’t it take one to know one Ed? Sure it does!

    Wow the children are so creative with troll signs – Ha! What are you guys dressing up as for Halloween? Star Wars characters or Beavis and Butthead?

  243. Nick Kelsier Says:

    I’m 34, child. Been living on my own for a long time. I just consider you a brainless idiot and see no reason to treat you with any respect or even as an adult. You’re a sociopathic liar and an idiot. Time for you to go away now.

  244. Ed Darrell Says:

    Hexmate, we converse with adults.

    We toy with you.

    Denialists are so predictable. Faced with facts, they turn to insult.

    Nick, I may post a “Do not feed the trolls” sign.

  245. Hexmate Says:

    Hey Nick and Ed. Do your parents know you are on the internet playing with adults? I mean both of you can’t be more than 16 years old.

  246. Hexmate Says:

    Nick said: “Do you like being purposely stupid and disingenous, Hex?

    Hey Nick I would have to ask you the same question – so do you? Oh and it is Hexmate Nick.

  247. Hexmate Says:

    Whoa Ed is back – recesss over Ed?

    Ed said: “Your refusal to stick to the facts is unbecoming.”

    Ed the facts are that your lack of facts, data, proof, etc., etc., or anything else relevant to the topic is an abysmal farce.

  248. Hexmate Says:

    Nick said: “I never said, you twit, that Gore invented the internet. And that’s not what he said either. What he said was that he was on the Senate Committee that provided the funding for it go from being ARAPANET which belonged to the US military only to the internet which belongs to us all.”

    Nick, you are so articulate. That would be correct though, Gore didn’t invent the internet he discovered it. He invented global warming for his own personal gain. Ya got it now?

  249. Hexmate Says:

    Nick said: “And you still haven’t figured out a way to get past these two points: 99% of the world’s leading scientific experts in this area agree that global warming is a real thing. And 2: What if you’re wrong?”

    So Nick did you go out and do a statiscal survey (99%) in order to determine this number? I’d like to see your data. It would be nice to see you guys back up some these statistics with data. More importantly Nick is what if you’re wrong?

  250. Hexmate Says:

    Nick said: “Are you being purposely stupid or is it that you’re just a sociopathic liar?”

    No Nick this would be your area of expertise. You can get help for this malady you know?

  251. Nick Kelsier Says:

    I never said, you twit, that Gore invented the internet. And that’s not what he said either. What he said was that he was on the Senate Committee that provided the funding for it go from being ARAPANET which belonged to the US military only to the internet which belongs to us all.

    Are you being purposely stupid or is it that you’re just a sociopathic liar?

    And you still haven’t figured out a way to get past these two points: 99% of the world’s leading scientific experts in this area agree that global warming is a real thing. And 2: What if you’re wrong?

  252. Ed Darrell Says:

    And please, stop writing articles without motivating your point of view, but just simply saying the statements made come out of a bovine anus.

    You stop trying to sell us excrement from bulls, we’ll noted it. But until then, we’ll call the stuff for what it is.

    No one is trying to close down industry. As I’ve indicated at some length in this thread — to which you have been absolutely nonresponsive — our experience is that cleaner air is good for business, not bad.

    Now, do you have a response that is more than effluent from bulls?

  253. Ed Darrell Says:

    Okay Nick if you say so we’ll let Gore discover the internet, and then that will confirm that he invented global warming too.

    Your refusal to stick to the facts is unbecoming.

  254. sebastian Says:

    Go to http://www.globalclimatescam.com and watch all the clips. Then watch this one (from somebody who actually has a phd, something I can not say about mr. Al): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOLkze-9GcI&feature=PlayList&p=A2DA7F33E2B09673&index=0 (all 4 parts). Then there’s another thing. Go read the climate change treaty. It’s a tax and people like Al Gore will profit from it. Global warming and cooling is linked solely to the sun, this has been proven by scientific research. Wake up!!
    And please, stop writing articles without motivating your point of view, but just simply saying the statements made come out of a bovine anus.

  255. Hexmate Says:

    Nick said: “Get off this asinine notion of yours that because CO2 is a thing of nature and necessary for life that it can’t possibly ever be life threatening.”

    Nick I think you are really getting off on this stuff – that’s scary man, or boy, or whatever you are.

  256. Hexmate Says:

    Nick said: “He (Gore) was on the Senate committee, you moron, that provided the funding necessary to turn ARAPNET (as it was then known) into the internet.”

    Okay Nick if you say so we’ll let Gore discover the internet, and then that will confirm that he invented global warming too. This gets better all the time.

  257. Hexmate Says:

    Nick said: “Really? Ok lets test that theory. Go stay in a room in which there is nothing but CO2.”

    Really Nick? That is an interesting experiment now isn’t it? However that is all it is – a manipulated or staged experiment. Nothing natural about or related to the real world in any way, shape, or form. Now why don’t you go do something productive for a change.

  258. Hexmate Says:

    Nick said: “Do you like being purposely stupid and disingenous, Hex?”

    Nick I’m not doing any of those things. Do you like being a fraud and a fake along with being a purveyor of a scam? Grow up Nick and get a real job! Some day somebody might respect you for it.

  259. Nick Kelsier Says:

    Hexmate writes:
    Ed said: Gore never claimed he invented the internet. He claimed exactly what he did…

    Your right Ed. He said he discovered the internet… he invented global warming!

    He was on the Senate committee, you moron, that provided the funding necessary to turn ARAPNET (as it was then known) into the internet.

    Do you like being purposely stupid and disingenous, Hex?

  260. Nick Kelsier Says:

    NEWS FLASH: CO2 is NOT a poison, not a pollutant;[do you work for the EPA?] it is essential for life. Break out your high school biology text.

    Really? Ok lets test that theory. Go stay in a room in which there is nothing but CO2.

    Is CO2 essential for life? Yeah…..in moderation. But that’s the key. If there is too much CO2 in the atmosphere you, me and every other human on the planet are going to be risking our healths and our lives.

    Get off this asinine notion of yours that because CO2 is a thing of nature and necessary for life that it can’t possibly ever be life threatening.

  261. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: CO2 is poisonous and a pollutant, both. For example, see here:
    http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2009/10/14/killer-co2-cloud-the-story-climate-change-skeptics-hope-you-wont-read/…...

    Ed what do you do really? This is all fecal matter without and scientific backing just links to a bunch of psycho science babble. You can do better than that. Well may you can’t!

  262. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: Gore never claimed he invented the internet. He claimed exactly what he did…

    Your right Ed. He said he discovered the internet… he invented global warming!

  263. Ed Darrell Says:

    SDCougar said:

    From critique of movie “5. The trailer notes the usual claim made by Gore opponents that industry cannot exist if it is clean, that industry requires that we poison the planet.”

    My point there is that we have heard the same argument against regulation of each pollutant, and it has been wrong each time. Cleaning the particulates didn’t break up industry. Cleaning SO2 and NOx didn’t break industry. Banning chloroflurocarbons didn’t stop the production of all refrigerators as business interests promised.

    Cleaning CO2 isn’t going to require the cessation of all industry, either, especially if we use the ideas put forth by people like Freeman Dyson, using good alternatives to effectively sequester carbon from the air.

    NEWS FLASH: CO2 is NOT a poison, not a pollutant;[do you work for the EPA?] it is essential for life. Break out your high school biology text.

    You keep forgetting that I used to do research in this topic; for this part, you should know I was the assistant for the graduate level class.

    And see my previous post. I think it’s likely you don’t understand what a pollutant is (a substance out of place), nor how CO2 works.

    And as for the claim the Al Gore got the science right!…20 foot rise in sea level? Hockey stick that left out the medieval warm period? A graph going backwards in time at one point!? Yup, Al Gore, the nations chief scientist and inventor of the internet….making millions on his British hedgefund with the carbon credit scam.

    I really hate it when people lecture me on history and get it dead wrong.

    Gore never claimed he invented the internet. He claimed exactly what he did — he saved ARPANET from being dismantled; ARPANET became the internet. The first Reagan budget proposed to kill all development. Gore realized what a disaster that would be, and he stopped it in Congress. Gore alone understood, and he personally made the pitches where it counted.

    You’re an ingrate for trying to ridicule the guy who makes possible all your internet cruising.

    Grace Moore didn’t invent the computer, either, but we all owe her a great debt for the advances she made.

    A 20-foot rise in sea level is at the low end of predictions if the Greenland ice sheet goes. You’re aware, I hope, that the action in Greenland is now running much faster than predicted, and Gore’s low-end estimate may be low.

    Next year? No. Sooner than Gore predicted? Good chance of that. Of course, you’d have to pay attention to what Gore said to know when he said it might occur. That’s more research than most “skeptics” are willing to do.

    You want to understand why so many scientists are reluctant to speak out? Read this by a world class Professor of Meteorology at MIT who has been slandered time and again.
    http://www.heartland.org/events/newyork09/pdfs/lindzen.pdf

    Heartland Institute is an industry astro-turf organization. Everything they say should be taken with several grains of salt.

    This guy is not censored, I note, nor has anything bad happened to him. It’s a bit odd to claim he’s scared and slandered, by pointing to a very public statement of his.

    Ultimately, Lindzen’s piece sounds as if it could have been written by Sir Frederick Hoyle in 1970. Hoyle became a master at stopping short of calling Wilson and Penzias quacks for their find of the confirmation of Big Bang; and Hoyle never would admit that Steady State was wrong. His last few interviews became quite sad, though, because he understood that his view had lost out — not because of politics, but because the universe didn’t arise the way Hoyle claimed, and ultimately the universe refused to cooperate to cover up its own tracks.

    Truth wins. Robust debate is good. Especially you should read Lindzen’s paragraph about the evils of argument from authority.

    Did you notice? Each of your arguments is an argument from authority.

    We still don’t have to poison the planet to keep industry going. Clean air and clean water have their benefits that we should not ignore. Stopping warming would be a good thing, too.

    And why should we not argue from authority? You keep claiming Gore is bad at science — but you’re ignoring history. Gore was right about ARPANET. Gore was right about organ transplant drugs, and registries of people who need and people who can donate organs. Gore was right about orphan drugs. Gore was right about the Superfund, and he was right about the Clean Water Act Amendments and Clean Air Act Amendments.

    Gore’s record on science policy issues has been solidly in the right for more than 30 years. Authority? Gore has it.

    Oddly, Gore argues the facts. Maybe that’s why he’s right so much, and so good an authority.

  264. Ed Darrell Says:

    NEWS FLASH: CO2 is NOT a poison, not a pollutant;[do you work for the EPA?] it is essential for life. Break out your high school biology text.

    CO2 is poisonous and a pollutant, both. For example, see here:
    http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2009/10/14/killer-co2-cloud-the-story-climate-change-skeptics-hope-you-wont-read/

    and here:
    http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2009/08/08/climate-skeptic-shell-game-please-dont-read-how-co2-amplifies-warming/

    and here:
    http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2009/06/10/can-carbon-dioxide-be-classed-as-a-pollutant/

  265. sdcougar Says:

    From critique of movie “5. The trailer notes the usual claim made by Gore opponents that industry cannot exist if it is clean, that industry requires that we poison the planet.”

    NEWS FLASH: CO2 is NOT a poison, not a pollutant;[do you work for the EPA?] it is essential for life. Break out your high school biology text.

    And as for the claim the Al Gore got the science right!…20 foot rise in sea level? Hockey stick that left out the medieval warm period? A graph going backwards in time at one point!? Yup, Al Gore, the nations chief scientist and inventor of the internet….making millions on his British hedgefund with the carbon credit scam.

    You want to understand why so many scientists are reluctant to speak out? Read this by a world class Professor of Meteorology at MIT who has been slandered time and again.
    http://www.heartland.org/events/newyork09/pdfs/lindzen.pdf

  266. sdcougar Says:

    “SDCougar, the interview Margaret Warner was a little more nuanced than your quote would allow — nor was her statement challenged by the UN guy.”
    Nuanced? It was a flat, catagorcial statement.
    And WHY wuould you expect the guy from the UN to challenge it?? He believes the same thing!

    And to Ed, yes, Christy opposes the IPCC report and that’s not hard to find out. He had a debate last Feb. opposing it. And he is not the only IPCC member to speak up:

    “The quantity of CO2 we produce is insignificant in terms of the natural circulation
    between air, water and soil… I am doing a detailed assessment of the UN IPCC reports and the Summaries for Policy Makers, identifying the way in which the Summaries have distorted the science… I have found examples of a Summary saying
    precisely the opposite of what the scientists said.”– Dr. Philip Lloyd, a UN IPCC co-coordinating lead author

    “.One of the things the scientific community is pretty agreed on is those things will have virtually no impact on climate no matter what the models say. So the question is do you spend trillions of dollars to have no impact? And that seems like a nobrainer.”– Richard Lindzen, Alfed P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology, MIT; UN IPCC

    What do you think of Claude Allegre’s current view on global warming?(YAHOO Qs)
    Claude Allegre was one of France’s top AGW alarmists, and one of the first French scientists to voice concerns over global warming. He wrote on the dangers of burning fossil fuels and rising CO2 levels.
    He’s changed his mind though, and now sees global warming as “over-hyped and an environmental concern of second rank”.
    He’s also said that “there is no basis for saying, as most do, that the science is settled” and that “the many climate models and studies failed dismally in establishing a man-made cause of catastrophic global warming. Meanwhile, increasing evidence indicates that most of the warming comes of natural phenomena.”

  267. A citizen Says:

    I find it poetic that the propaganda film “An Inconvenient Truth” is being challenged by some inconvenient actual truths.

  268. Ed Darrell Says:

    SDCougar, the interview Margaret Warner was a little more nuanced than your quote would allow — nor was her statement challenged by the UN guy. Here’s a big chunk of the interview, from the transcript:

    YVO DE BOER, executive secretary, U.N. Framework Convention on Climate Change: Thank you.

    MARGARET WARNER: So what do you hope to achieve in New York next week that will improve at least the prospects for getting a deal at Copenhagen?

    YVO DE BOER: Well, this is the only meeting that is going to bring together all heads of state and government from countries around the world, major industrialized countries, island nations that may disappear because of climate change, and I hope that they will collectively send a signal that they want Copenhagen to succeed.

    MARGARET WARNER: Now, they sent a similar signal around the G-8 meeting in Italy in July, yet the U.S. negotiator and others involved in these talks that you’ve been so involved in say they really aren’t going well, they’re not on pace to get a deal by December. Do you share that view?

    YVO DE BOER: Well, I would agree that the negotiations are moving slowly. But part of the reason why no big advances were made in the G-8 is because countries feel more comfortable negotiating climate change in the broader setting of the U.N. with everybody at the table rather than a small group, so that was part of the reason.

    ['Plan B' for Copenhagen]

    JUDY WOODRUFF: Now, Energy Secretary Chu — that is, of the Obama administration — said last week that — he said Copenhagen is not the be all and end all, and we can come back in two to four years, you previously have warned of the danger if there’s not a deal at Copenhagen, of losing momentum. Is that shifting now? I mean, are you preparing a sort of Plan B?

    YVO DE BOER: No, I’m not preparing a Plan B. I mean, I agree with Mr. Chu that Copenhagen is not going to be the be all and end all of climate change. Scientists have said we need to reduce global emissions by 80 percent, and that’s not what we’re going to agree in Copenhagen.

    But what we must agree in Copenhagen are the initial steps that countries will take in order to put us on a path towards that minus 80 percent. So embarking on this journey in Copenhagen is really important.

    MARGARET WARNER: But you’re saying it’s going to be embarking on the journey, it’s not going to be a comprehensive deal?

    YVO DE BOER: It’s going to be a comprehensive deal in the sense that it needs to be clear what rich countries are going to do to reduce their emissions, how major developing countries like China and India will engage, how money will flow that helps developing countries adapt to the impacts of climate change. So all of those ingredients need to be in there. But I think targets, commitments will be ratcheted up over time.

    MARGARET WARNER: Now, it was just, I think, 20 months ago that this huge team of scientists from all over the globe issued these unanimous warnings about the really extreme danger to the planet if global warming continued unabated, and they found that humans at least contribute to it, and everyone seemed to take that very seriously. The head of the panel won the Nobel award.

    But yet you’re having these difficulties. Is it the same, old rifts between rich and poor countries? Why is this so hard?

    YVO DE BOER: The rift between rich and poor is part of it. I think that countries, be they rich or be they poor, want to be sure that every country is engaging according to its capabilities, because if only some countries act on climate change and others don’t, you’re just going to be shifting jobs and shifting pollution from one country to the other, and that doesn’t really help.

    MARGARET WARNER: So that brings us to what the U.S. will bring to the table in Copenhagen. As we just said, it appears unlikely that you’re going to have a piece of emissions-cutting legislation that’s certainly signed before Copenhagen. To what degree is that going to undercut your efforts?

    YVO DE BOER: I hope it won’t. I mean, President Obama, as part of his election ticket, said, I’m serious about climate change. I want the U.S. to show leadership. I will show leadership, and I want to reach an agreement in Copenhagen.

    I think that the international community was incredibly enthused by that position of President Obama. And I’ve seen many countries respond to that. I’ve seen China and India dramatically change their position and now offer to also limit the growth of their emissions. Japan has come up with a very ambitious target; so has Europe, not all because of the United States, but certainly President Obama has blown new life into that debate.

    And as a consequence of that, I think he has to come to Copenhagen with something ambitious. And I think he can come to Copenhagen with something ambitious, a commitment, a target, without having all the legislation developed in the final detail.

    In fact, Japan doesn’t have its legislation prepared. Europe doesn’t have its legislation prepared. So that wouldn’t be so exceptional.

    [Engaging developing nations]

    MARGARET WARNER: And you said China, India and Brazil, the big developing countries, have they — they have been willing to make unilateral steps, but in the past they’ve been very reluctant to make any binding commitments in a treaty. Are you seeing that change?

    YVO DE BOER: I think that depends a lot on how we move on a number of other subjects. For example, will Copenhagen generate significant finance that helps developing countries to engage? But also…

    MARGARET WARNER: To adapt to cleaner technologies and grow without the old polluting ones.

    YVO DE BOER: Exactly, yes, to put cleaner technologies in place, but also, for example, climate change is causing a lot of tropical diseases to occur in areas where they didn’t occur before. How can you help poorer nations put in place health plans to deal with those kinds of issues?

    MARGARET WARNER: But let’s go back to China, India and Brazil. Are you seeing then — you think that they would be willing to sign the deal if it was a serious financing commitment on the part of the richer countries?

    YVO DE BOER: I think that China and India would be willing to sign a deal, then, yes. I don’t actually think China needs anybody’s money to engage. I think China is looking for cooperation on technology. The story for smaller developing countries is different, but I see a very general willingness around the world to really get it done in Copenhagen.

    [There's more at the News Hour site.

  269. Ed Darrell Says:

    While I usually admire Bill Moyers’s work, that piece about Carson has some serious problems.

    For example, it cites Roger Bate. Bate is neither an unbiased nor an expert player, but is instead a tobacco lobbyist astroturf creator — his organization has no members, is funded by industries trying to promote a pro-smoking lobby, and of the millions he has bragged about collecting, not a dime has gone to fight malaria. (Start here to get the lowdown on Bate: http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2009/07/11/bated-breath-bated-brains-bated-sense-and-ddt/).

    Second, it accepts without question the claim that Carson’s science was not top notch in Silent Spring. That’s pure poppycock. As I have challenged others in this thread, show me the science claim Carson made that has not borne up over time. There simply are none of any import. She was right on all major points, and there has never been a peer-review science paper published that questioned anything she wrote.

    On the other hand, there is zero support for the uncharitable, crabby view of Carson that claims her book was overinfluential and somehow persuaded African leaders to allow millions of their people to die — a racist claim at root that assumes Africans are the stupidest and most complacent peoples on Earth.

    So I wonder what you mean when you say that the Rachel Carson inaccurately described in the film “is true.” That short piece on Moyers’s site does not support such a claim.

    The facts are that Carson was dead right about DDT. She accurately forecast that if agricultural overuse were not stopped, mosquitoes and other pests would become resistant or immune to DDT — she documented that bedbugs had already become mostly immune at that time (but was that in the book? Hmmm. I’ll have to check.).

    Carson urged the use of integrated pest management. That is what is being used with great effect to fight malaria-carrying mosquitoes in Africa now. Had we only listened, 40 years earlier when she told us, how many millions of lives could have been saved?

    If Gore’s net worth climbed so precipitously — and I know it was much higher than $2 million before — it’s not due to the movie, from which his share of profits went to charity. Gore is an extremely savvy businessman, one of the brightest guys I’ve ever worked with. Odd that the normally free-market types who despise science and Rachel Carson would begrudge a guy making money in a free market.

    But with Carson critics, I find that ethical consistency is something they prefer to criticize in others, and not something they care to live up to.

  270. LarryGo Says:

    The Rachel Carson about DDT described in the film IS TRUE… Link from Bill Moyers of PBS fame:
    http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09212007/profile2.html

    Glad someone is finally making a film to refute Gore’s Convenient Inconvenient Truth. I hear his net worth has climbed from about $2 million to over $70 million since his movie. VERY convenient indeed.

  271. Ed Darrell Says:

    SDCougar:

    1. John R. Christy’s views are considered in the IPCC report — he’s one of NASA’s guys. While some portray him as a “skeptic,” he also worked on the team from the American Geophysical Union which adopted this position statement:

    “Human activities are increasingly altering Earth’s climate, and that natural influences alone cannot explain the rapid increase in surface temperatures observed during the second half of the 20th century.”

    Do you have some information which suggests he opposes the IPCC report?

    2. The words attributed to Itoh, I can’t find listed for him. Are you sure that is a quote from him?

    Among quotes I can find is this one, which suggests his views may not be as contrary to IPCC as portrayed in your post:

    A comprehensive climate convention is necessary. The framework-protocol formulism is too old to apply to modern international issues.

  272. sdcougar Says:

    Oh, I forgot this:

    http://desoggybog.com/index.php

  273. sdcougar Says:

    The big problem with the non-debate is that so many people are, understandably, misled by the news media. On Sept. 18 on the PBS NewHour, Margaret Warner stated that: “this huge team of scientists from all over the globe issued these unanimous warnings about the really extreme danger to the planet.”

    This, of course, is balderdash. She obviously does not do her homework or lives completely inside that little incestuous bubble of the news media.

    “It is a blatant lie put forth in the media that makes it seem there is only a fringe of scientists who don’t buy into anthropogenic global warming.”
    - Atmospheric Scientist Stanley B. Goldenberg, NOAA

    Dr. John R. Christy, Professor of Atmospheric Science, a lead author on IPCC report–”Our ignorance about the climate system is enormous, and policy makers need to know that. This is an extremely complex system, and thinking we can control it is hubris.” [THIS is the most important fact of the whole issue].

    DR. CHRISTOPHER W. LANDSEA, UN IPCC author, NOAA–”“I personally cannot in good faith continue to contribute to a process that I view as both being motivated by pre-conceived agendas and being scientifically unsound.”–withdrew from IPCC, along with several others that said the same thing.

    UN IPCC Japanese Scientist DR. KIMINORI ITOH–”The worst scientific scandal in the history…. When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.”

    Meteorologist HAJO SMIT, former member of the Dutch IPPC Committee–”Gore prompted me to start delving into the science again, and I quickly found myself solidly in the skeptic camp. Climate models can, at best, be useful for explaining climate changes after the fact.”

    Climatologist DR. ROBERT E. DAVIS, UN IPCC–”Be wary of global warming psychics warning us of unprecedented climate shifts — in most cases, they are only unprecedented because of the short life span of most scientists.”

    DR. RICHARD TOL, Author of three UN IPCC Working Groups–”Warming temperatures will mean that in 2050 there will be about 40,000 fewer deaths in Germany attributable to cold-related illnesses like the flu.”

    DR. PHILIP LLOYD, UN IPCC lead author–“The quantity of CO2 we produce is insignificant in terms of the natural circulation between air, water and soil.”
    6
    “I am doing a detailed assessment of the UN IPCC reports and the Summaries for Policy Makers, identifying the way in which the Summaries have distorted the science.”

    This is only the tip of the iceberg [Global warming can't melt these away...and you wonder who hawks 'junk science'!]

  274. Jeff Glassman Says:

    Al Gore said that a 20 foot rise in sea level is what would happen if “Greenland broke up”. Of course, that’s silly because Greenland is the world’s largest island, not an ice floe. Regardless, Greenland used to be green, and in fact it was called Greenland to encourage immigration. It was a flourishing farm land, colonized by the Vikings until abandoned around 1450.

    Gore says that in the past 650,000 years. atmospheric CO2 had never gone above 300 ppm, and linked this rise to temperature. He said, “When there is more carbon dioxide, the temperature gets warmer, because it traps more heat from the sun inside.” Then he said with respect to the ice core data, that “within less than 50 years” CO2 will be “off the chart”. So putting two and two together, Gore says that the climate will be warmer than at any time in the last 650,000 years, so Greenland will have lost its ice sheet (again), and that that will happen in less than 50 years.

    Is that not “in the very near future”? On the scale of the climate, it is nearly instantaneous. Only supervolcano eruptions and meteor impacts have had so sudden an impact on climate, and they didn’t last the 30 years required to declare a climate change and not a weather event.

    The trailer to “Not evil, just wrong” did not put quotation marks around “in the very near future” and attribute the words to Gore as Millard Fillmore’s Bathtub blog did. The phrase was the opinion of an anonymous voice, and it was not off the mark. MFB blog has misrepresented both the trailer and Inconvenient Truth, and with the latter, Al Gore.

    As a postscript, the ice core data are measured inside a CO2 sink, while the 300 ppm figure is measured in the plume of a huge CO2 source. The combined polar sinks and the source circulate 15 times as much CO2 as man emits. The sink should not be compared to the source, and the source should not be attributed to man.

    Gore relied on an erroneous comparison of CO2 to conclude something about an unprecedented temperature. Earth’s temperature can be estimated reliably inside the CO2 sink because the estimate relies on the oxygen isotopic ratio, and oxygen is poorly absorbed in the ocean so tends to be global. The same ice core record which Gore reproduced and relied on shows that the present temperature of Earth is below the maximum reached four previous times in the last half million years. Earth has about 1ºC to 3ºC to go to match the record, and that is due to natural causes. The ice core record and the thermometer records show that we might not make it.

    Next, the greenhouse effect warms but does not regulate Earth’s climate. Earth’s albedo does the regulating, and it switches between the frozen surface albedo in the ice ages to cloud albedo in the warm state, like the present.

    Finally from this little sampler of Gore’s errors, the atmosphere does not trap heat. Heat cannot be trapped. Heat is the flow of energy from warmer to colder bodies, and heat ends when the temperature equilibrates.

    See http://www.rocketscientistsjournal.com for further explanations or argument.

  275. Hexmate Says:

    Ed who are you really?

  276. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Read some of the stuff, get some knowledge, let it become wisdom, and stop your nasty attack on a good man for no particular reason, especially considering Carter has nothing to do with the science Nobels, and your bizarre implicit claim that Nobel science winners are evil or worthless.”

    Well Ed I think it would be wise for you to read some of the stuff as you put it and get some knowledge.

    Ed since you you want to continue this charade related to Jimmy Carter then I’ll be glad to carry on with it. Let’s address Carter’s gubernatorial campaign first in order to establish his use of racism to get elected.

    A flier was sent to barber and beauty shops, in envelopes addressed by me, when Jimmy Carter ran against Carl Sanders in the l970 Georgia gubernatorial campaign. It is racist. Hamilton Jordan, Carter’s friend and long time associate, created it. In my naïveté (I was 20), I didn’t consider the racism, instead, it was a great way to score a win against the Republican candidate. Get that? Accusing the Republican candidate of cavorting with blacks. Reverse racism?

    The flier is only a historic footnote. It shows the complexity of Jimmy Carter’s character. Hans von Spakovsky, posting on The National Review Online, comments on the same. In l956 Carter attempted to halt construction of a new black school, reacting to the segregationists who wanted to keep black and white children apart.

    Carter and the rest of the Sumter County School Board then reassured parents at a meeting on October 5, 1956, that the board “would do everything in its power to minimize simultaneous traffic between white and colored students in route to and from school.”

    People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.
    http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-1818-Denver-Election-Reform-Examiner~y2009m9d18-President-Carter-racism-is-complex-remember

    Then we can continue on a few more facts with regard to Carter’s acts of racism.
    As Jimmy Carter portrays conservatives as violent racists, it’s worth remembering Carter’s own history of racial demagoguery. Carter campaigned for governor of Georgia as a self-proclaimed “redneck,” in an era when that word had pronounced racial connotations. His campaign distributed a photo of his gubernatorial opponent Carl Sanders being embraced by black basketball players to a Ku Klux Klan rally. Carter pledged to invite Alabama’s infamous segregationist George Wallace to Georgia if elected. He once said he was “proud” to have the equally segregationist Lester Maddox as his lieutenant governor following the 1970 election, calling Governor Axe-handle “the essence of the Democratic Party” (which he was).

    Now let’s take a look at his presidential years.
    Without Carter’s policies, the Iran-Iraq war would not have raged for nearly a decade; the United States would not have had to form an unsavory alliance of convenience with Saddam Hussein, in order to hem in the mullahs; Hezbollah would not receive $100-$200 million a year from Tehran’s coffers; al-Qaeda would not have received training in Iran in 1992; and Iran’s nuclear ambitions, if they existed, would be of no consequence to the West whatsoever.

    Jimmy Carter’s presidency was the lowest point of American prestige in modern history. The missteps he made during those critical years continue to threaten the United States and the West.

    Average gas prices more than doubled during Carter’s presidency, reaching $1.25 a gallon by election day 1980, or roughly $3.00 a gallon today. Carter’s price controls gave us gas lines, shortages, and rationing. Prices continued to rise until Reagan abolished price controls by executive order. Rather than stand up to OPEC during the 1979 gas crisis, Carter cracked down on the American auto industry, and blamed the American people for their “crisis of confidence” in his incompetent leadership.

    President Carter’s economic genius created the situation that, by 1980, interest rates stood at 21 percent, inflation at 13.5 percent, unemployment at 7 percent, and the “misery index” he coined during the 1976 campaign reached 20.5 percent.

    Then lets take a look at some of his the bumbling mistakes his has made once he left office and again these are facts. During his 1994 trip to North Korea, Carter found time to bolster the image of the Stalinist enclave, saying he didn’t see anyone starving, and the well-stocked groceries of Pyongyang reminded him of the “Wal-Mart in Americus, Georgia.” Soon, he worked out agreement to give Pyongyang 500,000 metric tons of oil, tons of grain, and a light-water nuclear reactor – and he pressed the Clinton administration for a weaker agreement yet. The unverifiable agreement Carter designed allowed North Korea to develop as many as half-a-dozen nuclear weapons – which he now blames on George W. Bush.

    However, it was during the Clinton administration that his personal diplomacy reached its zenith. Carter writes that, in 1994, when North Korea began threatening to build nuclear weapons, he left on negotiations “with the approval of President Bill Clinton. Clinton allowed Carter to visit, after Al Gore pushed for the trip. However, as President Bill Clinton tried to convince Pyongyang all options were on the table including a military response, Carter “unilaterally” promised that even economic sanctions would not be forthcoming. When asked about this discrepancy, President Clinton told reporters, “None of us have talked directly with President Carter. We don’t know what he said.” For once, Bill Clinton sounded believable. Carter’s behavior in North Korea led a Clinton administration Cabinet member to call him a “treasonous prick.”

    Ed this guy is great all right; he is great at screwing up anything he touches.

  277. Ha ha ha Says:

    You global warming alarmists are scared because people aren’t just buying your crap. You complain about a non-scientists movie ABOUT a non-scientists movie? That’s rich. You prove our point, THE SCIENCE JUST IS NOT THERE, either way. 20 years ago all I heard was that we were entering another ICE AGE. How did that work out? When they can tell me the weather next week to any degree of accuracy then I will maybe listen, but they can’t tell me what the weather will be tomorrow, 24 hours from now. Besides, New York city used to be covered under twenty feet of ice. What melted that ice floe, caveman fires? The facts are simple, we have an extremely incomplete picture of how weather works. We certainly cannot predict a hundred years into the future, and all your whining doesn’t make a single one of your catastrophic claims true. Waa waa waa, there’s no consensus on global warming, scientific or otherwise.

  278. Ed Darrell Says:

    Richard, please cite any single issue upon which Carson was wrong. I can find no place where she erred.

    Molly, I’ve only addressed the errors in the trailer, which I’ve gone over many times.

    Also, as you can read in other comments, the judge in England did NOT rule on scientific accuracy, only on the British version of the fairness doctrine — and the judge tossed out 26 of the complaints.

    No science errors in Gore’s film.

    Where does that leave Philim and McAleer? Not sitting well.

  279. Richard Rhodes Says:

    Guess what Rachel Carson was just flat out wrong. And as far as global warming now climate change (notice the name change, so if global cooling occurs they will still look right) anybody who believes this crap is an idiot. Go look at real scientists not Al Gore and the idiots he flies around with.

  280. Molly Jenkins Says:

    9. “So, this is a film promoting the views of crabby, misanthropic anal orifices who don’t know Al Gore at all?”

    How can we really know Al Gore if he will not take questions? It is not so difficult. What exactly does he fear? If he doesn’t know the answer, all he has to do is say so. No big deal. People, in general, will accept and even respect an answer of: “I don’t know, but I will find out.” I use this answer when necessary as I run my real estate brokerage. I do the necessary research and then report back to my client. No big deal. Four years with no questions, excepting those softball pitches. Come on. Answer the questions, Al. Give me a reason to take you seriously. I won’t put a moratorium on my brain just because Al says I should take him for what he says and not question.

  281. Molly Jenkins Says:

    How about all the people who believe this documentary to be a farce, reserve comment until they have actually watched it. All these comments are benign until people know precisely what information the documentary presents. If the children of our future are to be critical thinkers, we need to present both sides of the argument. I was furious when An Inconvenient Truth was shown to my son without permission and without any consideration for the other side of the debate. I confronted the teacher with the fact that the High Court of London ruled that the film could only be shown if the 9 alleged errors concerning the film were addressed. She didn’t even know about the case. To top it off, Al Gore won’t take questions. What kind of fool cannot elaborate on his theories in public? After four years, one would think Mr. Gore could answer a few questions from those who disagree with him. The fact that he could not, only substantiates the opposing view.

  282. Ed Darrell Says:

    That’s funny, Stewart. Got a link to a news story about the event and non-attendees?

  283. stewart Says:

    Good news! NEJW opened in Calgary this week (the home of Canada’s oil businesses) and NO people attended. That’s right. 0. Zero (en Francais). Nada.
    That’s the attention it deserves. Even Monckton got about 7 geriatric attendees. Meanwhile, our very conservative government is cntinuing to plan for the loss of glacial meltwater over the next 50 years, and funding carbon capture technologies. Scientific feedback can make you do things you don’t want to admit to, I guess.

  284. Ed Darrell Says:

    Carter declared in his inaugural speech that the time of racial segregation was over, and that racial discrimination had no place in the future of the state. He was the first statewide office holder in the Deep South to say this in public. Afterward, Carter appointed many African Americans to statewide boards and offices. He was often called one of the “New Southern Governors” – much more moderate than their predecessors, and supportive of racial desegregation and expanding African-Americans’ rights.

    Carter also initiated significant new mental health programs and took a variety of actions, both substantive and symbolic, to promote civil rights and equal opportunity for women and minorities. The governor reflected his commitment to fairness and justice most obviously in his appointment policy. He appointed more women and minorities to his own staff, to major state policy boards and agencies, and to the judiciary than all of his predecessors combined.

    As president, Carter created two new cabinet-level departments: the Department of Energy and the Department of Education. He established a national energy policy that included conservation, price control, and new technology. In foreign affairs, Carter pursued the Camp David Accords, the Panama Canal Treaties and the second round of Strategic Arms Limitation Talks (SALT II). Carter sought to put a stronger emphasis on human rights; he negotiated a peace treaty between Israel and Egypt in 1979. His return of the Panama Canal Zone to Panama was seen as a major concession of US influence in Latin America, and Carter came under heavy criticism for it.

    Also see The American Experience biography of Carter. Also see the Nobel Foundation’s biography of Carter, which includes a list of the many places he’s been called to mediate a peace.

    And remember, that’s just a refutation of the bizarre claims you made in a post that confused the Nobel Peace Prize with the Nobels in Chemistry, Physics and Medicine, in which you sought to denigrate the science awards by claiming winners of Peace Prize were nasty people, as if there were some connection.

    The guy who said there is more stupidity in the universe than hydrogen might have been right. Why is stupid so often coupled with proud ignorance and an ugly mean streak?

    Read some of the stuff, get some knowledge, let it become wisdom, and stop your nasty attack on a good man for no particular reason, especially considering Carter has nothing to do with the science Nobels, and your bizarre implicit claim that Nobel science winners are evil or worthless.

  285. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “I know my manners well enough to understand that insult isn’t argument. How many posts without facts are you shooting for? Your goal is too high.”

    Ed you should start practicing what you preach here. You have managed to contribute your fair share of insults up to this point.

  286. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Carter, who was a relatively successful governor who promoted anti-racism as in Georgia, among other things created the weapons we’ve used for the wars we’ve had in the Middle East over the past two decades. You owe a great debt to that man, especially if you’re a veteran.”

    Ed you better check your facts again about Carter. He ran using a racist ad campaign, remember the Pickwick and Lester Maddox? Don’t believe me – it is a documented fact so go look it up. You don’t teach history do you Ed? You get funnier every time you post Ed. The ramble you made about the Middle East weapons is unintelligible, and Jimmy Carter never jack squat for me as a veteran. You beating this Jimmy Carter thing to death – he is a big fat zero, always was and always will be.

  287. Ed Darrell Says:

    Ed you really need to change your paradigm. The truth just doesn’t fit your mental model.

    Truth? When have you offered any support for your slanders against Carter? Never.

    Truth is fine, but really, quit with the slanders, especially those you don’t have any support for. I can’t tell if it’s because you genuinely don’t have the sense to support your claims, or if it’s because you’re just vicious. But stop it, please.

    Carter, who was as relatively successful governor who promoted anti-racism as in Georgia, among other things created the weapons we’ve used for the wars we’ve had in the Middle East over the past two decades. You owe a great debt to that man, especially if you’re a veteran.

    Gratitude doesn’t appear to be a virtue you possess.

    Some day when you grow up maybe you’ll understand.

    I know my manners well enough to understand that insult isn’t argument. How many posts without facts are you shooting for? Your goal is too high.

  288. Brett Says:

    Ed, you need to get a checkup, your brain isn’t firing on all cylinders. I never said anything of the sort. What a joke, you can’t even get non GW related facts correct.

    Brett offered a bizarre and largely unjustified attack on Nobel Peace Prize winners, including a completely undocumented and libelous attack on Jimmy Carter.

  289. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: Some of us think that oath binds for life. You insult fellow vetarans. Shame on you again.

    Better yet Ed we’ll compare notes and we can talk about similar experiences we had in war and what that means. You know, band of brother stuff!

  290. Hexmate Says:

    Nick said: You mean like Bush’s even greater ineptness?

    Let’s see Nick… last time I checked Iraq is free! From a dictatorship to a free government just like you have Nick. Are you jealous that they have freedom Nick? Wow that is ironic considering what you said Nick.

  291. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: Some of us think that oath binds for life. You insult fellow veterans. Shame on you again.

    When you get a little experience Ed come back and tell me about it.

  292. Hexmate Says:

    Nick said: You mean like Bush’s even greater ineptness?

    Well Nick time will tell won’t it? Once Obama gets done he will dwarf anything Bush spent and in fact he already has – over 5 trillon and counting. What was Carter’s little contribution? Camp something or other. What did that result in? Oh nothing – that’s right! Great example Nick. Thanks for playing try again!

  293. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: Some of us think that oath binds for life. You insult fellow veterans. Shame on you again.

    Ed you don’t have a clue as evidenced by your comment. Some day when you grow up maybe you’ll understand.

  294. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: More unsupported slander.

    Ed you really need to change your paradigm. The truth just doesn’t fit your mental model.

  295. Nick Kelsier Says:

    Hex writes:

    I was just making a statement of fact with regard to Carter’s ineptness. History has already documented his bumbling of the presidency and since then he has managed to continue his charade of accomplishment.

    You mean like Bush’s even greater ineptness? And Cheney’s desire to turn the Presidency into an dictatorship? At least Carter has accomplished things. The only thing Bush and Cheney accomplished was authorizing torture, spending the country into a hole, destroying the middle class and getting us into a stupid war in Iraq predicated on lies. Was Carter the best President we’ve had? No. But at least he didn’t come close to destroying the country.

    At least Carter had the Camp David accords.

  296. Ed Darrell Says:

    Well Ed I am a veteran – Call Sign Hexmate.

    Some of us think that oath binds for life. You insult fellow vetarans. Shame on you again.

  297. Ed Darrell Says:

    I was just making a statement of fact with regard to Carter’s ineptness. History has already documented his bumbling of the presidency and since then he has managed to continue his charade of accomplishment.

    More unsupported slander.

    If you have a fact, why not post it?

  298. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “My experience is that your brands of bigotry never occur accidentally. Is there no member of the armed forces you won’t insult? You don’t know peanuts about Jimmy Carter. I dare you to take the citation from the Nobel Peace Prize committee and comment on it, showing their error.”

    This is some special rambling you are carrying out here Ed. Armed forces? Well Ed I am a veteran – Call Sign Hexmate. Jimmy don’t know peanuts Ed that’s why they kicked him off of the farm. The Nobel committee is nothing more than a political mouthpiece Ed.

  299. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said – “Why are you pissing in your boots in the first place? Jimmy Carter could instruct you on personal hygiene if you would let him — and heaven knows, somebody should. So, I presume, you’ve been drinking from your boot it to keep from having to show the boot heel? Your charges against Carter are wholly unjustified, and they demonstrate how small you are. Shame on you.”

    Ed you are such a hoot! I’m not pissing in my boot – I don’t even wear boots. You may find it acceptable to drink piss but you would only do this in an emergency otherwise it is a tasteless act that sounds like you have tested out like your global warming theory. I was just making a statement of fact with regard to Carter’s ineptness. History has already documented his bumbling of the presidency and since then he has managed to continue his charade of accomplishment. His peanut days are over because he couldn’t even do that right. Actually I find it exhilarating to tell the truth. You should try sometime.

  300. Ed Darrell Says:

    ’m a teacher too, and I’ll probably show this next year instead of that worthless Inconvenient Truth!

    I noted I don’t teach science. You’re going to show McAleer’s film — in your unit about propaganda? Where else could a teacher ethically show such a thing?

  301. Ed Darrell Says:

    Many of the climate change “skeptics” are so hysteric they cannot distinguish between Nobels in science (Chemistry, Physics, Physiology or Medicine) and Nobels in Peace. When I noted that Nobel science winners don’t follow along with the bizarre claims of climate change “skeptics” Brett offered a bizarre and largely unjustified attack on Nobel Peace Prize winners, including a completely undocumented and libelous attack on Jimmy Carter.

    I called him on that attack and its falseness. Brett responds by attacking me — demonstrating once again that, even if there are facts to support any skeptic’s claims, they do not know them and they cannot pass up a chance at attempted character assassination.

    Hexmate said:

    Well Ed the truth hurts doesn’t it?

    You can’t possibly know. You’ve never run into it.

    Scumbag! Oh Ed such strong language. Jimmy Carter couldn’t pour urine out of boot if the directions were written on the heel.

    Why are you pissing in your boots in the first place? Jimmy Carter could instruct you on personal hygiene if you would let him — and heaven knows, somebody should. So, I presume, you’ve been drinking from your boot it to keep from having to show the boot heel? Your charges against Carter are wholly unjustified, and they demonstrate how small you are. Shame on you.

    You can’t educate anyone here. You don’t know the difference between a prize for peace and a prize for chemistry. What you don’t know bars your way to the doors of knowledge.

    I should take down your posts to prevent your children from being embarrassed. But that might provide a greater injustice.

    I accomplished more by accident thus far than Carter did on purpose and please remember Carter has no honor.

    My experience is that your brands of bigotry never occur accidentally. Is there no member of the armed forces you won’t insult? You don’t know peanuts about Jimmy Carter. I dare you to take the citation from the Nobel Peace Prize committee and comment on it, showing their error.

    But don’t bother, really. When you find yourself trapped in a mudhole next to an outhouse and in danger of drowning from the seepage, you should stop digging as a first rule.

    You should spend your time more productively trying to prove your global warming theories.

    I thought you were going to defend your claims? I thought you promised not to come back here to spread falsehoods? (Or was that Brett? All stupid bigotry begins to look the same after a minute.)

    More promises broken. No wonder you think all recipients of the Peace prize are unworthy — they work against your goals.

    But what explains your confusion about chemistry and diplomacy?

  302. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: What a scumbag thing to say.

    Jimmy Carter accomplished more before he was 21 than you have in your life. With honor.

    I’ve never banned anyone from this blog, but you’re making me wonder if it’s not a good idea.

    Well Ed the truth hurts doesn’t it? Scumbag! Oh Ed such strong language. Jimmy Carter couldn’t pour urine out of boot if the directions were written on the heel. I accomplished more by accident thus far than Carter did on purpose and please remember Carter has no honor. You should spend your time more productively trying to prove your global warming theories.

  303. Brett Says:

    Well Ed, you said it your self. I found your blog through Google and it is not science at all. So I’m going to agree with you on this point.

    You can’t find the best science on Google. If that’s the best you have, it’s no wonder you’re seriously malinformed.

  304. Doug Says:

    Biggest scam in human history. Just give it up! Guess what, Ed? I’m a teacher too, and I’ll probably show this next year instead of that worthless Inconvenient Truth!

  305. Kevin Bowers Says:

    After reading the toilet humor in the response to the movie, I’m convinced the movie has hit a nerve and the truth hurts. I think I will try to get it viewed in my son’s junior high class since the students were forced to watch Al Gore’s movie without rebuttal. This movie appears to be a legitmate counterweight…and yes, “global climate change” is a ruse to raise our taxes and lower our standard of living.

  306. Ed Darrell Says:

    As I have stated before, you have consistently demonstrated a myopic viewpoint in favor of APGW. Your retorts, citings and whatever else you put forth are all skewed toward a very narrow focus that APGW must exist.

    You’ve read one post on a minor point. So far as I can tell, you don’t read much beyond your own posts. Certainly you’re not reading any of the other posts I’ve made on this topic.

    Don’t blame me for what you don’t see, when you don’t look. That’s not my myuopia.

    There are many sound climatologists and scientists who have presented arguments against APGW. I can see these don’t matter to you though.

    There are a few, not many. Especially there are not many in proportion to the sound climatologists, physicists, meteorologists, paleometeorologists and others, including especially air pollution scientists, who make the solid case for two things: First, that warming is occurring, and second, that humans are playing a significant role in that warming.

    It’s not a criminal case, but environmental crises rarely are — and it’s unfair and unwise to apply a criminal law standard to the evidence. We need only clear and convincing evidence, a preponderance of evidence, and not “beyond a reasonable doubt.”

    I wish it were true that the climate were not warming. Even were that true, that wouldn’t excuse our polluting the environment. If it were true that our contribution to warming was dwarfed by natural processes and that we can do nothing to stave off disaster, that would be a poor excuse to continue polluting.

    You have no idea what I’ve read, over how many years, on this topic. You can’t begin to appreciate the hours I’ve spent in policy hearings at the federal level, and in two different state governments, in addition to the years I put in working in air pollution research in academia. But you come in guns blazing, touting a crank scientist as your authority, and spouting insults and judgments so thick that no one in their right mind would do anything but stay away, as if I should bow down to your superior — what? — bluster?

    If you want to make a good argument, go look up the work of Pat Frank. I’m convinced he’s found most of the evidentiary holes in the case for warming (there are a few) and the case for human contributions to it (they are separate issues, you appear not to realize).

    I wish for the sake of my children and grandchildren, and for the sake of the planet, that it were true this were all a hoax — and tomorrow we could go on burning fossil fuels as if there were no tomorrow.

    Tomorrows come, however. That’s reality. It’s time for you to wake up and smell the coffee, while we still have clean water to brew it, while the coffee plants still produce good coffee, while we can afford to roast and brew the stuff.

    As Dyson has said, Al Gore and James Hansen are forwarding “lousy science”.

    Got a citation to Dyson calling warming studies “lousy science?” That’s not what he said in the famous NY Review of Books article (which I cited earlier, and which I still think you haven’t read). Dyson thinks there are cheaper solutions than what he understands Gore to have proposed. But importantly, Dyson does not deny warming nor the human causation. If you have a contrary set of data, I’d like to see it.

    This has created a tremendous disservice to nonscientific people and the real truth about the Earth’s climate. Go to google type this in “earth cooling since 1998″. I guess all those people are crazy right along with myself.

    You can’t find the best science on Google. If that’s the best you have, it’s no wonder you’re seriously malinformed.

    About grants and along the lines of your example. If I had a billion dollars and I offered grants to anyone proving APGW was a myth. The argument would be over in a heartbeat, APGW would end just like that.

    As I suspected, your charges are slanderous, but without any evidence. You don’t have a clue what you’re talking about with regard to grants to study climate change.

    At this moment in time the prevailing tide is in favor of APGW.

    You can’t count votes, either. You’re more politically naive than you are scientifically naive. Were that true, why is it no nation has made the necessary steps to stem the tide? Why is there no climate change-stopping bill in law in the U.S.?

    At this moment, the side with the expensive public relations campaign to promote disaster over saving the planet is winning. That’s your side, if you didn’t catch the reference.

    Just as much as you steadfastly hold to APGW, I hold to knowing it will be proven false. I know this because a growing number of respectable scientists are stepping into the fray to correct APGW falsities that have been foisted on the public.

    I wish it were false. I wish you had a clue what you’re talking about and could offer references to support your claims.

    I wish I would win the Texas Lotto, too — odds about equally good of that that you are right, several billion to 1 against.

    Until then this conversation is finished. o-o

    Conversation? You came in screaming, didn’t produce anything to inform anyone, dismissed all references to information that were informative, and rarely shut up so anyone else could get a scream in edgewise.

    Self-flagellation is not a conversation. You’ll feel a lot better when you stop. You might even be able to hear a fact fall.

  307. Brett Says:

    Ed:

    As I have stated before, you have consistently demonstrated a myopic viewpoint in favor of APGW. Your retorts, citings and whatever else you put forth are all skewed toward a very narrow focus that APGW must exist.

    There are many sound climatologists and scientists who have presented arguments against APGW. I can see these don’t matter to you though.

    As Dyson has said, Al Gore and James Hansen are forwarding “lousy science”. This has created a tremendous disservice to nonscientific people and the real truth about the Earth’s climate. Go to google type this in “earth cooling since 1998″. I guess all those people are crazy right along with myself.

    About grants and along the lines of your example. If I had a billion dollars and I offered grants to anyone proving APGW was a myth. The argument would be over in a heartbeat, APGW would end just like that.

    At this moment in time the prevailing tide is in favor of APGW. Just as much as you steadfastly hold to APGW, I hold to knowing it will be proven false. I know this because a growing number of respectable scientists are stepping into the fray to correct APGW falsities that have been foisted on the public.

    Until then this conversation is finished. o-o

  308. Ed Darrell Says:

    So Ed, why haven’t you addressed my point that the Earth has been cooling since 1998?

    That’s a crock. 1998 was a peak year, but we’re in no cooling trend. Track temperatures back past 1998, and you’ll see we’re not cooling at all. Track ‘em back to 1800, you’ll see we’re far from any cooling trend.

    What makes you think no one will notice that either you don’t know how to read charts, and you’ve gullibly accepted some crank science, or you’re trying to pull the wool over our eyes?

    There has been a decline in Solar activity since 1998. Gee maybe Lord Monckton has something there when he talks about Solar variations which produce cosmic rain and its effect on Earth.

    What effect do solar variations have on greenhouse gases? None. Oops. Monckton misled you again. Gullibility has its prices.

    Ed, you cite the IPCC, you forgot to mention that the IPCC mislead scientists as to its intent.

    That’s a crock, too. There were a few fools who seemed to come late to the game and didn’t figure out how this 30-year (or so) process works, and there were quite a few scam artists, like Monckton, to claimed to have been misled though they were never part of the process.

    But IPCC’s procedures have been published and well-established longer than my children have been alive (they’re in college now). Anyone who claims they were misled is either terminally stupid or evil.

    Are there disagreements? Sure. Those are well noted.

    Ed, you are in denial in your refusal to explore and potentially understand the science that can demonstrate Man has little to do with climate change. Let me give you an exercise, go to the government and tell them you can prove APGW is not true. Ask them for grant money. You’ll be laughed out of the building. The current agenda only supports APGW.

    Not only are you gullible, you tell tall tales, too.

    Your description of the grant process is insultingly stupid — insulting to anyone who knows better. If you don’t know better, let me ask you to detail where you would go to apply for a government research grant.

    And before I note your grotesque falsehood, let me apprise you that I was on the team that wrote the law that puts scientists in jail if they hoke up results or lie on their grant applications about their credentials. You’re accusing scientists who face criminal penalties of committing crimes. That is libel if you’re not right — and if you were right, do you seriously think George Bush’s Justice Department would not have prosecuted?

    Gullible, ill-informed — should we add dishonest to the list of what you demonstrate here, or are you willing to admit you had no clue about the grant-getting process?

    Ed, another point you over looked is that the Earth is an open scientific system. If you know anything about science you know that nothing can be proved in an open system. It is all just speculation. Any scientist claiming to have proved APGW exists is not following basic scientific practices.

    All greenhouses are, technically, open systems. The glass in the greenhouse slows the process down, however, making it an effectively closed system from one heating cycle through the cooling cycle and to the next heating cycle.

    Our system is open as to energy inputs and outputs, but not open as to accumulation of greenhouse gases (with the possible exception of helium, but it plays a small role if it is a greenhouse gas).

    So, even though we have an open system, greenhouse effects mean we have warming.

    Go study greenhouses for a while, you may begin to figure it out.

    But please don’t tell us greenhouses don’t work. Many of us have been too many years in horticulture to do anything other than yell “QUACK!” at people who make such ill-informed statements.

    Frankly the most alarming point I see in this blog is that you have to counter anything that does not fit your myopic viewpoint on APGW. This is exactly why I think you are dangerous.

    I don’t have a billion dollar budget to tell lies like the “climate skeptics” do. In fact, no one has a billion dollar budget to counter the falsehoods from the “skeptics.” Truth wins in a fair fight — that’s all I’m doing, trying to keep the fight fair by spreading accurate information.

    Clearly, you’ve gotten soaked by a load of crap. It’s tough to protect gullibles from a billion dollar propaganda campaign.

    A teacher like yourself with an absolutely closed mind should not be in our schools.

    See, a couple of posts back I noted that this isn’t the area I teach in. We probably will have to resort to licensing people who can’t hear and won’t read to keep the fight fair, if you’re any indication.

    You need to take by example Freeman Dyson, at 84 scientists credit him for one of the most open minds in their community. By the way, he does not believe the CO2 has anything to do with climate change.

    You should read Freeman Dyson sometime. He thinks we can solve global warming — but he doesn’t deny that it happens. He doesn’t think we need massive controls on air pollution, so much as other inventive ideas, like his idea to sink CO2 in soils. Frankly, Dyson is more hopeful than skeptical of warming. He’s looking hard at the science, which shows that CO2 is rising. Dyson wonders whether the effects will be so damaging as some predict, and his doubt about the greatest damage is tempered wholly by his faith that we can come up with inexpensive, innovative, and perhaps purely organic ideas to control CO2 in the atmosphere.

    Don’t put yourself on the same side with Dyson. Dyson doesn’t give 10 seconds to cranks like Monckton — and I’ll wager you can’t find Dyson even mentioning Monckton.

    The truth may not be that we face catastrophe, but the truth certainly is not what Monckton says it is in any form.

    If you can’t quote correctly the people you agree with, I suppose we shouldn’t be surprised at your wildly exaggerated misperceptions of the accurate science.

    But it means we have to regard everything you say with a few grains of salt.

  309. Brett Says:

    You have a lot of gall to voice the viewpoint of the subversion, but claim that scientists work to spread falsehoods.

    Take it up with the Texas legislature and sane people. Our system of government depends on citizens doing their job, voting, serving in office, voicing opinions, standing for the Pledge of Allegiance and saluting the flag when it passes in a parade.

    On second thought, take it up with the next active-duty Marine you see — tell him you think he’s a punk and a dupe, and tell him you disagree with kids being taught to salute his nation’s flag. Let us know what the guy says, will you?

    Again, nice attempt to twist my statements into something that serves to further your propaganda. Ed, why don’t you tell that same Marine how you will only teach about APGW. OK, so you say that Milankovitch cycles are not in the teaching standards, I suppose that extends to anything that would counter APGW. Just another way of saying there is an active agenda to subvert education to create social engineering.

    So Ed, why haven’t you addressed my point that the Earth has been cooling since 1998? I know this really doesn’t fit into your ideal of supporting APGW. Ask any Ham radio operator why the Earth has been cooling since 1998. They can tell you in different terms. Solar activity helps radio signals bounce around the World via the X, X1 and X2 layers in the atmosphere. There has been a decline in Solar activity since 1998. Gee maybe Lord Monckton has something there when he talks about Solar variations which produce cosmic rain and its effect on Earth.

    Ed, you cite the IPCC, you forgot to mention that the IPCC mislead scientists as to its intent. Some climatologists had to go to great extents to have their names removed from the list of supporters. The IPCC is forwarding the APGW agenda, plain and simple.

    Ed, you are in denial in your refusal to explore and potentially understand the science that can demonstrate Man has little to do with climate change. Let me give you an exercise, go to the government and tell them you can prove APGW is not true. Ask them for grant money. You’ll be laughed out of the building. The current agenda only supports APGW.

    Ed, another point you over looked is that the Earth is an open scientific system. If you know anything about science you know that nothing can be proved in an open system. It is all just speculation. Any scientist claiming to have proved APGW exists is not following basic scientific practices.

    Frankly the most alarming point I see in this blog is that you have to counter anything that does not fit your myopic viewpoint on APGW. This is exactly why I think you are dangerous. A teacher like yourself with an absolutely closed mind should not be in our schools. You need to take by example Freeman Dyson, at 84 scientists credit him for one of the most open minds in their community. By the way, he does not believe the CO2 has anything to do with climate change.

  310. Ed Darrell Says:

    The 2002 winner Jimmy Carter who allowed the capture of 53 Americans for over 400 days in Iran, was never able to gain their freedom, and who never accomplished anything tangible in his life. He was also responsible for 8 military personnel being killed in a botched rescue attempt Ed.

    What a scumbag thing to say.

    Jimmy Carter accomplished more before he was 21 than you have in your life. With honor.

    I’ve never banned anyone from this blog, but you’re making me wonder if it’s not a good idea.

  311. Ed Darrell Says:

    Let me be blunt, Hexmate. I greatly dislike plagiarism. I think it should be a crime. There’s a link to Coleman’s work posted where your post used to be. If you are not an honorable enough person to indicate what is your work and what is the work of others, you don’t get credit for it.

    Now that we know exactly what your occupation is, it seems we’re just haggling about the price.

    Or, you could repost with proper attribution.

    Your choice.

  312. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “It’s odder than hell how you can only see “science” and “facts” in crackpots like Monckton, and not in Nobel laureates who actually do the science.”

    Ed I found it interesting that you were referred to as a crackpot. You need to separate yourself from this type of behavior. I thought it was interesting to note a few of the past Nobel winners, because it appears they are not worthy of any great honor or distinction. It’s a really good reason to choose carefully who you believe and admire.

    The 1992 winner Nobel laureate Rigoberta Menchu has been exposed as a Communist agent working for terrorists who were ultimately responsible for the death of her own family. She killed her own family Ed.

    The 1994 winner Yassar Arafat was a known terrorist. Another killer.

    The 2002 winner Jimmy Carter who allowed the capture of 53 Americans for over 400 days in Iran, was never able to gain their freedom, and who never accomplished anything tangible in his life. He was also responsible for 8 military personnel being killed in a botched rescue attempt Ed.

    The 2004 winner Wangari Maathai also claimed that white devils invented the AIDS virus to wipe out the black race – BRILLIANT!

    2007 winner Al Gore for his baseless theory on global warming that has been refuted with accurate data by subject matter experts. In addition Gore has enriched himself off of this farce by growing his own net worth by 5000%. What a dedicated environmentalist Ed.

    Even murderer Tookie Williams was nominated for the award. Another killer Ed.

  313. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said – “Hexmate, you suffer from an odd form of blindness. I suspect global warming has so damaged your vision that you cannot now see what is plainly in front of you. It’s odder than hell how you can only see “science” and “facts” in crackpots like Monckton, and not in Nobel laureates who actually do the science. You’ll find nothing of use on this site, I’m sure.”

    Well Ed my vision is 20/20 and because there is no global warming it is clear and uninhibited. Your vision on the other hand is diseased obviously beyond repair. There is nothing odd about the truth Ed except that it conflicts with your perception of reality.

  314. Hexmate Says:

    The Amazing Story Behind the Global Warming Scam
    By John Coleman
    The key players are now all in place in Washington and in state governments across America to officially label carbon dioxide as a pollutant and enact laws that tax we citizens for our carbon footprints. Only two details stand in the way, the faltering economic times and a dramatic turn toward a colder climate. The last two bitter winters have led to a rise in public awareness that there is no runaway global warming. The public is now becoming skeptical of the claim that our carbon footprints from the use of fossil fuels is going to lead to climatic calamities.
    How did we ever get to this point where bad science is driving big government to punish the citizens for living the good life that fossil fuels provide for us?
    The story begins with an Oceanographer named Roger Revelle. He served with the Navy in World War II. After the war he became the Director of the Scripps Oceanographic Institute in La Jolla in San Diego, California. Revelle saw the opportunity to obtain major funding from the Navy for doing measurements and research on the ocean around the Pacific Atolls where the US military was conducting atomic bomb tests. He greatly expanded the Institute’s areas of interest and among others hired Hans Suess, a noted Chemist from the University of Chicago, who was very interested in the traces of carbon in the environment from the burning of fossil fuels.
    Revelle tagged on to Suess studies and co-authored a paper with him in 1957. The paper raises the possibility that the carbon dioxide might be creating a greenhouse effect and causing atmospheric warming. It seems to be a plea for funding for more studies. Funding, frankly, is where Revelle’s mind was most of the time.
    Next Revelle hired a Geochemist named David Keeling to devise a way to measure the atmospheric content of Carbon dioxide. In 1960 Keeling published his first paper showing the increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and linking the increase to the burning of fossil fuels.
    These two research papers became the bedrock of the science of global warming, even though they offered no proof that carbon dioxide was in fact a greenhouse gas. In addition they failed to explain how this trace gas, only a tiny fraction of the atmosphere, could have any significant impact on temperatures.
    Now let me take you back to the1950s when this was going on. Our cities were entrapped in a pall of pollution from the crude internal combustion engines that powered cars and trucks back then and from the uncontrolled emissions from power plants and factories. Cars and factories and power plants were filling the air with all sorts of pollutants.
    There was a valid and serious concern about the health consequences of this pollution and a strong environmental movement was developing to demand action. Government accepted this challenge and new environmental standards were set. Scientists and engineers came to the rescue. New reformulated fuels were developed for cars, as were new high tech, computer controlled engines and catalytic converters. By the mid seventies cars were no longer big time polluters, emitting only some carbon dioxide and water vapor from their tail pipes. Likewise, new fuel processing and smoke stack scrubbers were added to industrial and power plants and their emissions were greatly reduced, as well.
    But an environmental movement had been established and its funding and very existence depended on having a continuing crisis issue. So the research papers from Scripps came at just the right moment. And, with them came the birth of an issue; man-made global warming from the carbon dioxide from the burning of fossil fuels.
    Revelle and Keeling used this new alarmism to keep their funding growing. Other researchers with environmental motivations and a hunger for funding saw this developing and climbed aboard as well. The research grants began to flow and alarming hypothesis began to show up everywhere.
    The Keeling curve showed a steady rise in CO2 in atmosphere during the period since oil and coal were discovered and used by man. As of today, carbon dioxide has increased from 215 to 385 parts per million. But, despite the increases, it is still only a trace gas in the atmosphere. While the increase is real, the percentage of the atmosphere that is CO2 remains tiny, about 41 hundredths of one percent.
    Several hypothesis emerged in the 70s and 80s about how this tiny atmospheric component of CO2 might cause a significant warming. But they remained unproven. Years have passed and the scientists kept reaching out for evidence of the warming and proof of their theories. And, the money and environmental claims kept on building up.
    Back in the 1960s, this global warming research came to the attention of a Canadian born United Nation’s bureaucrat named Maurice Strong. He was looking for issues he could use to fulfill his dream of one-world government. Strong organized a World Earth Day event in Stockholm, Sweden in 1970. From this he developed a committee of scientists, environmentalists and political operatives from the UN to continue a series of meeting.
    Strong developed the concept that the UN could demand payments from the advanced nations for the climatic damage from their burning of fossil fuels to benefit the underdeveloped nations, a sort of CO2 tax that would be the funding for his one-world government. But, he needed more scientific evidence to support his primary thesis.
    So Strong championed the establishment of the United Nation’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. This was not a pure climate study scientific organization, as we have been led to believe. It was an organization of one-world government UN bureaucrats, environmental activists and environmentalist scientists who craved the UN funding so they could produce the science they needed to stop the burning of fossil fuels. Over the last 25 years they have been very effective. Hundreds of scientific papers, four major international meetings and reams of news stories about climatic Armageddon later, the UN IPCC has made its points to the satisfaction of most and even shared a Nobel Peace Prize with Al Gore.
    At the same time, that Maurice Strong was busy at the UN, things were getting a bit out of hand for the man who is now called the grandfather of global warming, Roger Revelle. He had been very politically active in the late 1950’s as he worked to have the University of California locate a San Diego campus adjacent to Scripps Institute in La Jolla. He won that major war, but lost an all important battle afterward when he was passed over in the selection of the first Chancellor of the new campus.
    He left Scripps finally in 1963 and moved to Harvard University to establish a Center for Population Studies. It was there that Revelle inspired one of his students to become a major global warming activist. This student would say later, “It felt like such a privilege to be able to hear about the readouts from some of those measurements in a group of no more than a dozen undergraduates. Here was this teacher presenting something not years old but fresh out of the lab, with profound implications for our future!” The student described him as “a wonderful, visionary professor” who was “one of the first people in the academic community to sound the alarm on global warming,” That student was Al Gore. He thought of Dr. Revelle as his mentor and referred to him frequently, relaying his experiences as a student in his book Earth in the Balance, published in 1992.
    So there it is, Roger Revelle was indeed the grandfather of global warming. His work had laid the foundation for the UN IPCC, provided the anti-fossil fuel ammunition to the environmental movement and sent Al Gore on his road to his books, his move, his Nobel Peace Prize and a hundred million dollars from the carbon credits business. What happened next is amazing.
    The global warming frenzy was becoming the cause celeb of the media. After all the media is mostly liberal, loves Al Gore, loves to warn us of impending disasters and tell us “the sky is falling, the sky is falling”. The politicians and the environmentalist loved it, too.
    But the tide was turning with Roger Revelle. He was forced out at Harvard at 65 and returned to California and a semi retirement position at UCSD. There he had time to rethink Carbon Dioxide and the greenhouse effect. The man who had inspired Al Gore and given the UN the basic research it needed to launch its Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was having second thoughts.
    In 1988 he wrote two cautionary letters to members of Congress. He wrote, “My own personal belief is that we should wait another 10 or 20 years to really be convinced that the greenhouse effect is going to be important for human beings, in both positive and negative ways.” He added, “…we should be careful not to arouse too much alarm until the rate and amount of warming becomes clearer.”
    And in 1991 Revelle teamed up with Chauncey Starr, founding director of the Electric Power Research Institute and Fred Singer, the first director of the U.S. Weather Satellite Service, to write an article for Cosmos magazine. They urged more research and begged scientists and governments not to move too fast to curb greenhouse CO2 emissions because the true impact of carbon dioxide was not at all certain and curbing the use of fossil fuels could have a huge negative impact on the economy and jobs and our standard of living. I have discussed this collaboration with Dr. Singer. He assures me that Revelle was considerably more certain than he was at the time that carbon dioxide was not a problem.
    Did Roger Revelle attend the Summer enclave at the Bohemian Grove in Northern California in the Summer of 1990 while working on that article? Did he deliver a lakeside speech there to the assembled movers and shakers from Washington and Wall Street in which he apologized for sending the UN IPCC and Al Gore onto this wild goose chase about global warming? Did he say that the key scientific conjecture of his lifetime had turned out wrong? The answer to those questions is, “I think so, but I do not know it for certain”. I have not managed to get it confirmed as of this moment. It’s a little like Las Vegas; what is said at the Bohemian Grove stays at the Bohemian Grove. There are no transcripts or recordings and people who attend are encouraged not to talk. Yet, the topic is so important, that some people have shared with me on an informal basis.
    Roger Revelle died of a heart attack three months after the Cosmos story was printed. Oh, how I wish he were still alive today. He might be able to stop this scientific silliness and end the global warming scam.
    Al Gore has dismissed Roger Revelle’s Mea culpa as the actions of senile old man. And, the next year, while running for Vice President, he said the science behind global warming is settled and there will be no more debate, From 1992 until today, he and his cohorts have refused to debate global warming and when ask about we skeptics they simply insult us and call us names.
    So today we have the acceptance of carbon dioxide as the culprit of global warming. It is concluded that when we burn fossil fuels we are leaving a dastardly carbon footprint which we must pay Al Gore or the environmentalists to offset. Our governments on all levels are considering taxing the use of fossil fuels. The Federal Environmental Protection Agency is on the verge of naming CO2 as a pollutant and strictly regulating its use to protect our climate. The new President and the US congress are on board. Many state governments are moving on the same course.
    We are already suffering from this CO2 silliness in many ways. Our energy policy has been strictly hobbled by no drilling and no new refineries for decades. We pay for the shortage this has created every time we buy gas. On top of that the whole thing about corn based ethanol costs us millions of tax dollars in subsidies. That also has driven up food prices. And, all of this is a long way from over.
    And, I am totally convinced there is no scientific basis for any of it.
    Global Warming. It is the hoax. It is bad science. It is a highjacking of public policy. It is no joke. It is the greatest scam in history.

  315. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “I fear for your violation of copyright. It’s an issue of attribution solely — John Coleman is just as wrong in his own words as if you claim them for your own. I didn’t think you’d give up the point so easily.”

    Ed there is no copyright violation just your fears creeping in again. I know his truth doesn’t fit your mental model Ed, but that is a fitting attribution to your methodology. I’m surprised you couldn’t do better.

  316. Ed Darrell Says:

    Hexmate, you suffer from an odd form of blindness. I suspect global warming has so damaged your vision that you cannot now see what is plainly in front of you. It’s odder than hell how you can only see “science” and “facts” in crackpots like Monckton, and not in Nobel laureates who actually do the science.

    You’ll find nothing of use on this site, I’m sure.

  317. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: Hexmate, take a look at serious analyses of the alleged errors in Gore’s Academy Award-winning movie

    Ed – There is nothing there other than a bunch of words and people voting for Gore, and against the judge’s critique. No data or facts just words. Hardly conclusive information.

  318. Ed Darrell Says:

    Hexmate, take a look at serious analyses of the alleged errors in Gore’s Academy Award-winning movie:

    http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2007/10/update_on_the_nine_alleged_err.php

  319. Ed Darrell Says:

    I agree, have you taught about Milankovitch cycles?

    Not in the standards. Yes, I’ve been asked about them and we discuss them.

    You’re aware, of course, that the IPCC reports have been paying attention to long-term processes such as Milankovitch cycles, since the inception, no?

    Despite these longterm cycles, human-caused warming presents a problem. We’re overdue for a cooling cycle way beyond what we’ve seen in the last 200 years.

    Here, you can learn about the cycles yourself from the group that tracks them for IPCC.

    There are many interesting points in the natural movement of the Earth. Did you know that Polaris is not always the North Star? In 12,000 the star Vega in the constellation Lyra will be the North Star. This very same Earth precession also moves the polar ice caps. It is absolutely normal for the ice to change on Earth’s poles. It is interesting that Milankovitch cycles are used to calibrate ice core samples, yet they are ignored when it comes to determining the natural glacial periods of the Earth.

    Every Boy Scout knows about stars and precession.

    No, Milankovitch cycles don’t suggest that our current warm trend is normal, nor due to end soon. Alas. Read up on this stuff. See the link above.

    Do you teach about the Great Barrier Reef?

    Did you know that 200 feet below the surface of the ocean is another barrier reef. The ocean used to be 200 feet lower and today’s reef was covered in vegetation. Clearly the sea level changes without human involvement.

    Standard 9th grade geography in Texas.

    No, the presence of old reefs does not negate global warming. Have you read the IPCC report?

    More critically, have you ever heard of the Burgess Shales? Ancient reefs in odd places don’t mean we can poor garbage into our air and get away with it.

    More to the point, Have you taught any form of science that counters APGW? If so what was the subject matter?

    I’ve taught the science, not idle and misplaced speculation. It’s not my current assignment, but you could do well to get up to speed on what we know about the atmosphere, and how humans can and have changed the cycles. It’s pretty frightening when you think of it: Milankovitch cycles, 400,000-year and 100,000 year cycles driven by the eccentricities of the orbit of the Earth — and human pollution appears to be cancelling them out.

    To paraphrase the old coffee-room sign, “Your Mother Nature doesn’t live here; clean up after yourself.”

  320. Ed Darrell Says:

    You know very well there is an active agenda of subverting education to create social engineering with a liberal if not socialist persuasion.

    I live and teach in Texas. Nationally, there is no “active agenda of subverting education” and even if there were, it wouldn’t be operative in Texas.

    On the other hand, there IS an active agenda of subverting public discussion on issues like air pollution, to frighten the public and scare people away from actions that would protect the environment — Exxon’s admitted it.

    You have a lot of gall to voice the viewpoint of the subversion, but claim that scientists work to spread falsehoods.

    As far teaching students to be politically active, this is exactly what I mean by a breach in ethical standards. I would suggest teaching the basics, Reading, Writing and Arithmetic, especially since Texas ranks pretty low nationally.

    Take it up with the Texas legislature and sane people. Our system of government depends on citizens doing their job, voting, serving in office, voicing opinions, standing for the Pledge of Allegiance and saluting the flag when it passes in a parade.

    On second thought, take it up with the next active-duty Marine you see — tell him you think he’s a punk and a dupe, and tell him you disagree with kids being taught to salute his nation’s flag. Let us know what the guy says, will you?

  321. Harold Says:

    I can’t wait to see this movie. Finally a different point of view. I don’t want to see more censorship, free speech and democracy were earned by those brave enough to risk their lives and fight for our freedom. I am sick of the liberal media and their attempt to brainwash everyone. I don’t believe that someone who is concerned about global warming would live in am enormous house and fly on a Private jet. Let us all believe the scientists who said it was going to be nice and sunny today, it is snowing. I understand the need for science but I don’t blindly accept all they say. I work with them everyday.

  322. Brett Says:

    There are strict ethical and moral codes, plus licensing authorities, and other codes I subscribe to just for the sake of ethics.

    Divulging a political party is not an indication of subversive intent. Most patriotic Americans should have political views, and should be politically active.

    Interesting twist on my point. You know very well there is an active agenda of subverting education to create social engineering with a liberal if not socialist persuasion. As far teaching students to be politically active, this is exactly what I mean by a breach in ethical standards. I would suggest teaching the basics, Reading, Writing and Arithmetic, especially since Texas ranks pretty low nationally.

    The questions around climate change are questions of facts, most of them science questions. They are not skewable for the most part. The fact is the planet is warming (it would be great news that the planet is cooling, were it so — but there’s no evidence of a trend that way at all).

    Well then I have great news for you, the Planet has been cooling since 1998. The Planet has not been warming for over 10 years.

    One should teach the facts and the theories that explain the facts.

    I agree, have you taught about Milankovitch cycles?

    There are many interesting points in the natural movement of the Earth. Did you know that Polaris is not always the North Star? In 12,000 the star Vega in the constellation Lyra will be the North Star. This very same Earth precession also moves the polar ice caps. It is absolutely normal for the ice to change on Earth’s poles. It is interesting that Milankovitch cycles are used to calibrate ice core samples, yet they are ignored when it comes to determining the natural glacial periods of the Earth.

    Do you teach about the Great Barrier Reef?

    Did you know that 200 feet below the surface of the ocean is another barrier reef. The ocean used to be 200 feet lower and today’s reef was covered in vegetation. Clearly the sea level changes without human involvement.

    More to the point, Have you taught any form of science that counters APGW? If so what was the subject matter?

    If the science supported a cooling planet, it would be great. It’s not likely. That’s not the trend over the past 50 years. There is no grand conspiracy to convince people, falsely, of warming. That’s just what the data show.

    Again, the Earth has been cooling for over 10 years.

  323. Ed Darrell Says:

    These days there is no longer an ethical or moral code for teachers. My High School Civics teacher refused to divulge his political party because he wanted us to form our own opinions, not follow his.

    There are strict ethical and moral codes, plus licensing authorities, and other codes I subscribe to just for the sake of ethics.

    Divulging a political party is not an indication of subversive intent. Most patriotic Americans should have political views, and should be politically active.

    The questions around climate change are questions of facts, most of them science questions. They are not skewable for the most part. The fact is the planet is warming (it would be great news that the planet is cooling, were it so — but there’s no evidence of a trend that way at all).

    One should teach the facts and the theories that explain the facts.

    I no longer teach air pollution nor the biology and chemistry involved. I teach students according to the laws and regulations of the state of Texas. That code hopes to convince students to learn the facts and be politically active.

    If the science supported a cooling planet, it would be great. It’s not likely. That’s not the trend over the past 50 years. There is no grand conspiracy to convince people, falsely, of warming. That’s just what the data show.

    The question is, will we deal with it, or will we try to stick our heads in the sand?

  324. Brett Says:

    Ed:

    Originally I stated that I thought you were an idiot due to your myopic viewpoint. Now that I see you are a teacher, I would like to change my mind about that.

    I think you are down right dangerous!

    Since this blog is meant to educate students, and so far the majority of your posts clearly side with APGW. I must assume you forward this same myopic agenda in the classroom.

    These days there is no longer an ethical or moral code for teachers. My High School Civics teacher refused to divulge his political party because he wanted us to form our own opinions, not follow his.

    Today teachers, like Ed, espouse APGW as truth based in science when in fact there is no proven scientific basis that CO2 or anything else Man does can change the Earth’s climate. In fact, there are much stronger parallels in Solar variations via cosmic rain, Milankovitch cycles and the Earth’s precipitation system. I will bet these are not ready topics in the classroom.

    Maybe more of us should study the fall of the Roman Empire in more detail. Admittedly issues like APGW did not exist in Roman times. Still the decay of our society based on over powering agenda driven special interests lacking in ethical and moral standards most certainly predict an analogous fall of our society.

  325. Ed Darrell Says:

    Ed the blue hot links either lead to a site without any connection to your comment or to other commentary that is an oversimplification of a complex problem. By artificially creating a scenario that fits your mental model and applying it you can create any outcome that is consistent with your theory.

    Specify which points are beyond your ken, I’ll get you links to a reputable site to explain the facts to you.

    But please be specific. When I’m specific, you ignore it. I made few general points.

  326. Ed Darrell Says:

    Ed said: “Walter Cunningham? He’s rather famous for leading lynch mobs, you know.”

    Ed – you know a couple of people said that about you. It takes one to know one.

    The gods take one’s sense of humor first, then one’s sense of honor, on the road to destruction.

  327. Ed Darrell Says:

    Uh no Ed. The scientific expert – that would be you along with the other people who posted. I understand your fear of being challenged so take it down, but it is readily available to anyone who wants to read it.

    I fear for your violation of copyright. It’s an issue of attribution solely — John Coleman is just as wrong in his own words as if you claim them for your own.

    I didn’t think you’d give up the point so easily.

  328. Bisky Bisky Says:

    Yes CO2 driven GW is junk science. 31000 scientists have a real consensus, better than the fake 5000 scientist UN consensus. Fossil fuel burning does not follow temp changes, heating releases co2, not the other way around, the earth was warmer a few hundred years ago when vineyards covered the English landscape. The good news is CO2 is making the earth greener. The bad news is the Earth is now cooling. Warm is good. Cooling causes early frosts and destroys crops.
    The 31000 scientist study can be found online easy. Sunspot activity is responsible for temp changes. Mars climate follows ours also. Hope we don’t have to put Gore on suicide watch when this is finally excepted.
    I know GW is a religion for some.

  329. MJS Says:

    Sounds like an interesting film; but, no, I probably won’t see it: I don’t _need_ to be convinced of just how stupid and fanatical the environmentalists are. I pretty much already know everything they have to say in the film. Hopefully, lots of ordinary folks will see the film and realize just how stupid the environmentalists are; but I doubt it. First of all, the theaters are all in the hands of the very people this film is aimed at, especially the small, independent art houses, which can usually be counted on to run this kind of documentary; and they certainly will not admit heretics into their house. This means that people will have to actively seek the film out. And who’s going to do that? Only the people who already know what’s what. Thus, I seriously doubt the film will have any kind of substantial effect on public opinion. And even if millions of people saw it and were convinced, it wouldn’t stop Congress and the state legislatures from continuing to pass silly “green” laws to strangle our economy and reduce our freedom. It’s been clear for a long time that Congress pays no attention to public opinion. They don’t have to: each member’s re-election is virtually assured unless he gets caught with a mistress or an adolescent male lover.

    And, by the way, mea sententia, the film should be titled “Not Merely Wrong, But Truly Evil.”

  330. Hexmate Says:

    Ed-Click on the blue hotlinks, Hexmate. Read what they say.

    Ed the blue hot links either lead to a site without any connection to your comment or to other commentary that is an oversimplification of a complex problem. By artificially creating a scenario that fits your mental model and applying it you can create any outcome that is consistent with your theory.

  331. Hexmate Says:

    Ed said: “Walter Cunningham? He’s rather famous for leading lynch mobs, you know.”

    Ed – you know a couple of people said that about you. It takes one to know one.

  332. Hexmate Says:

    Uh no Ed. The scientific expert – that would be you along with the other people who posted. I understand your fear of being challenged so take it down, but it is readily available to anyone who wants to read it.

  333. Ed Darrell Says:

    Walter Cunningham? He’s rather famous for leading lynch mobs, you know. Be careful: Confronted with the facts, he’s liable to turn on the mob he leads.

  334. Ed Darrell Says:

    The real story behind the global warming hoax.

    Hexmate, that’s John Coleman’s work, mostly, and it’s copyrighted. Resubmit it with proper attribution, and clear marks as to what are Coleman’s words and which words are yours. I’ll take that post down shortly, but leave it up for a while so you can get a copy to edit.

  335. Ed Darrell Says:

    I have three or four hits on my comment and the post that included Walter Cunningham’s view of global warming from what I assume are the renowned scientific experts in the world on global warming, but I don’t see any data, proof, facts, etc., to support their commentary.

    Click on the blue hotlinks, Hexmate. Read what they say.

  336. Hexmate Says:

    [Editor's note: Post taken down for copyright reasons. Hexmate refuses to tell us what is quoted material and what is original. Hexmate tried to pass off much of John Coleman's work as his own. You can see Coleman's version here.]

  337. Hexmate Says:

    Another fraud exposed.

    Greenpeace leader Gerd Leipold has been forced to admit that his organization issued misleading and exaggerated information when it claimed that Arctic ice would disappear completely by 2030, in a crushing blow for the man-made global warming movement.

    In an interview with the BBC’s Stephen Sackur on the “Hardtalk” program, Leipold initially attempted to evade the question but was ultimately forced to admit that Greenpeace had made a “mistake” when it said Arctic ice would disappear completely in 20 years.

    The claim stems from a July 15 Greenpeace press release entitled “Urgent Action Needed As Arctic Ice Melts,” in which it is stated that global warming will lead to an ice-free Arctic by 2030.

    Sackur accused Leipold and Greenpeace of releasing “misleading information” based on “exaggeration and alarmism,” pointing out that it was “preposterous” to claim that the Greenland ice sheet, a mass of 1.6 million square kilometers with a thickness of 3 km in the middle that has survived much warmer periods in history, would completely melt when it had stood firm for hundreds of thousands of years.

    “There is no way that ice sheet is going to disappear,” said Sackur.

    “I don’t think it will be melting by 2030. … That may have been a mistake,” Leipold was eventually forced to admit.

    However, Leipold made no apologies for Greenpeace’s tactic of “emotionalizing issues” as a means of trying to get the public to accept its stance on global warming.

  338. Hexmate Says:

    This is very interesting. I have three or four hits on my comment and the post that included Walter Cunningham’s view of global warming from what I assume are the renowned scientific experts in the world on global warming, but I don’t see any data, proof, facts, etc., to support their commentary. They are simply critical of the comments Cunningham made and want to discredit him and the hundreds of other scientists who have debunked the theory of global warming. These individuals want to cherry pick elements and hypothesize their opinions as conclusive proof that humans are responsible for global warming without presenting any proof. In God we trust all others please bring data – conclusive and indisputable proof please.

  339. Nick Kelsier Says:

    Someone wrote:
    Carbon dioxide is a nonpolluting gas, essential for plant photosynthesis.
    • Higher concentrations of CO2 in the atmosphere produce bigger harvests

    And yet, if you were put in a room full of too much CO2 you would die due to asphyxiation. And higher concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere, little one, can also kill off plant life.

    This claim that it’s a “natural” gas so that somehow makes it not dangerous or potentially dangerous is stupid to the point of insanity.

    As for Walter Cunningham his only scientific training is as a physicist. That hardly gives him any scientific expertise when it comes to climate change. And I’m willing to bet that quite a lot of those claimed “400 scientists” are either not actual scientists or scientists with training in unrelated fields.

  340. Ed Darrell Says:

    Hexmate said or quoted:

    NASA’s Aqua satellite is showing that water vapor, the dominant greenhouse gas, works to offset the effect of carbon dioxide (CO2). This information, contrary to the assumption used in all the warming models, is ignored by global warming alarmists.. Climate understanding and critical decision-making require comprehensive data about our planet’s land, sea, and atmosphere.

    Heat reflecting by clouds and other vapor is well known, and at least some of the better atmospheric models do account for this difference. See “global dimming,” for example.

    To claim that climate change modelers don’t know that is a bit on the absurd side.

  341. Ed Darrell Says:

    Hexmate, were you quoting an article?

    • Carbon dioxide is a nonpolluting gas, essential for plant photosynthesis.
    • Higher concentrations of CO2 in the atmosphere produce bigger harvests

    Any gas is a pollutant if it’s in a dangerous concentration and/or out of place. CO2 can be deadly. It kills a few people annually; CO2 caused a mass killing catastrophe in Camaroon recently enough that people should know better than to claim it’s not a pollutant, let alone not dangerous.

    (Too little CO2 is a problem, too, for humans — but these yahoos probably couldn’t understand that. Or maybe this astronaut Hex is quoting or citing (which?), remembered that part of his training, and forgot the other part.)

    Higher CO2 creates a greater harvest of some plants, but not all plants. Troublingly, higher CO2 levels tend to promote the growth of weeds at the expense of food crops. We don’t need more Canadian thistle, or Russian thistle, or cheat grass, or kudzu in America, nor poison ivy anywhere. These plants tend to do better than food crops in higher CO2 concentrations.

    Hexmate, have you ever studied the chemistry, physics and biology of air pollution? What you cite seems to be unaware of much of this science.

  342. Nick Kelsier Says:

    And yet, Hex, none of that is credible evidence. None of it is actual science. Until you and your side actually comes up with the science to prove your conclusion…you have nothing.

    So it’s time for you and yours to put up or shut up.

  343. Hexmate Says:

    This would be the truth based on facts versus the emotional and selfserving innuendo being purveyed by this website.

    Subject: Global Warming View from Astronaut Walter Cunningham
    Subject: Important info about the Global Warming hoax.

    As author of LAUNCH Magazine’s Viewpoint column, former Apollo 7 astronaut Walter Cunningham is known for straight talk—a trait sorely missing in today’s world of political correctness. Cunningham’s unquestioned credibility on matters involving space, science, the military, finance and corporate management stems from 45 years of experience accumulated during separate careers in the United States Marine Corps, NASA and private industry.

    In Science, Ignorance Is Not Bliss Walter Cunningham

    NASA has played a key role in one of the greatest periods of scientific progress in history. It is uniquely positioned to collect the most comprehensive data on our biosphere. For example, recently generated NASA data enabled scientists to finally understand the Gulf Stream warming mechanism and its effect on European weather. Such data will allow us to improve our models, resulting in better seasonal forecasts.

    NASA’s Aqua satellite is showing that water vapor, the dominant greenhouse gas, works to offset the effect of carbon dioxide (CO2). This information, contrary to the assumption used in all the warming models, is ignored by global warming alarmists.. Climate understanding and critical decision-making require comprehensive data about our planet’s land, sea, and atmosphere.

    Without an adequate satellite system to provide such data, policy efforts and monitoring international environmental agreements are doomed to failure. Our satellite monitoring capability is being crippled by interagency wrangling and federal bud get issues. As much as a third of our satellites need replacing in the next couple of years.

    NASA should be at the forefront in the collection of scientific evidence and debunking the current hysteria over human-caused, or Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW). Unfortunately, it is becoming just another agency caught up in the politics of global warming, or worse, politicized science. Advocacy is replacing objective evaluation of data, while scientific data is being ignored in favor of emotions and politics.

    There are excellent correlations between the regular fluctuations of the Sun and the Earth’s temperature, while scientists cannot find a relationship between industrial activity, energy consumption, and global temperatures. But global warming is an issue no longer being decided in the scientific arena.

    Saying the Earth is warming is to state the obvious. Since the end of the Ice Age, the earth’s temperature has increased approximately 16 degrees Fahrenheit and sea levels have risen a total of 300 feet. That is certain and measurable evidence of warming, but it is not evidence of AGW—human-caused warming. We can track the temperature of the Earth back for millennia. Knowing the temperature of the Earth, past or present, is a matter of collecting data, analyzing it, and coming up with the best answer to account for the data. Collecting such data on a global basis is a NASA forte.

    I believe in global climate change, but there is no way that humans, can influence the temperature of our planet to any measurable degree with the tools currently at their disposal. Any human contribution to global temperature change is lost in the noise of terrestrial and cosmic factors.

    Our beautiful home planet has been warming and cooling for the last 4.8 billion years. Most recently, it has been warming—be it ever so slightly—but there is nothing unusual about it! The changes and rates of change in the Earth’s temperature, just since the Industrial Revolution, have occurred many times in our climatic history. While climate scientists generally agree that the Earth’s temperature is always changing but not many of them would say that humans are responsible for those changes.

    None of this is to say there are not legitimate reasons to restrict emissions of any number of chemicals into the atmosphere. We should just not fool ourselves into thinking we will change the temperature of the Earth by doing so.

    In a December 2007 Senate report, 400 prominent scientists signed a letter pointing out that climate change was a well-known natural phenomenon, and that adapting to it is far more sensible than attempting to prevent it. Their ranks included experts in climatology, geology, oceanography, biology, glaciology, biogeography, meteorology, economics, chemistry, mathematics, environmental sciences, engineering, physics, and paleo-climatology. Their message: When changes are gradual, man has an almost infinite ability to adapt and evolve.

    The fear mongers of global warming base their case on the correlation between CO2 and global temperature, even though we cannot be sure which is “cause” and which is “effect”. Historically, temperature increases have preceded high CO2 levels, and there have been periods when atmospheric CO2 levels were as much as 16 times what they are now, periods characterized not by warming but by glaciation. You might have to go back half a million years to match our current level of atmospheric CO2, but you only have to go back to the Medieval Warming Period, from the 10th to the 14th Century, to find an intense global warming episode, followed immediately by the drastic cooling of the Little Ice Age. Neither of these events were caused by variations in CO2 levels.

    Even though CO2 is a relatively minor constituent of “greenhouse gases,” alarmists have made it the whipping boy for global warming (probably because they know how fruitless it would be to propose controlling other principal constituents, H2O, CH4 and N2O). Since human activity does contribute a tiny portion of atmospheric CO2, they blame us for global warming.

    Other inconvenient facts ignored by the activists:

    • Carbon dioxide is a nonpolluting gas, essential for plant photosynthesis.
    • Higher concentrations of CO2 in the atmosphere produce bigger harvests

    In spite of warnings of severe consequences from rising seas, droughts, severe weather, species extinction, and other disasters, the U.S. has not been stampeded into going along with the recommendations of the UN Panel on Climate Change—so far. Even though evidence supports the American position, we have begun to show signs of caving in to the alarmists.

    With scientific evidence going out of style, emotional arguments and anecdotal data are ruling the day. The media subjects us to one frightening image of environmental nightmares after another, linking each to global warming. Journalists and activist scientists use hurricanes, wildfire s, and starving polar bears to appeal to our emotions, not to our reason. They are far more concerned with anecdotal observations, such as the frozen sea ice inside the Arctic Circle, than they are with understanding why it is happening and how frequently it has occurred in the past.

    After warnings that 2007 would be the hottest year on record and a record year for hurricanes, what we experienced was the coolest year since 2001 and, by some measures, the most benign hurricane season in the Northern Hemisphere in three decades. Even though recent changes in our atmosphere are all within the bounds of the Earth’s natural variability, a growing number of people are willing to throw away trillions of dollars on fruitless solutions.

    Why do we allow emotional appeals and anecdotal data to shape our conclusions and influence our expenditures with the science and technology we have available at our fingertips?

    The situation is complex, but the sad state of scientific literacy in America, today, is partially to blame for belief in AGW. When a 2006 National Science Foundation survey found 25 percent of Americans not knowing the Earth goes around the Sun, you know that science education is at a new low and society is vulnerable to the emotional appeal of AGW. And don’t underestimate the role of politics and political correctness.

    The public debate should focus on the real cause of global temperature change and whether we can do anything about it. Is global warming a natural inevitability, or is it AGW—human caused?

    The conflict over AGW has deteriorated into a religious war; a war between true believers in human-caused global warming and non-believers; between those who accept AGW on faith and those who consider themselves more sensible and better informed. “True believers” are past being interested in evidence; it is impossible to reason a person out of positions they have not been reasoned into.

    It doesn’t help that one of the early alarmists claiming humans caused global warming was NASA scientist James Hansen. Hansen is a political activist who spreads fear even when NASA’s own data contradict him.

    Warming in the upper atmosphere should occur before any surface warming effect, but NASA’s own data show that has not been happening. Global temperature readings—accurate to 0.1 degree Centigrade—are gathered by orbiting satellites. Interestingly, in the 18 years those satellites have been recording global temperatures they have actually shown a slight decrease in average temperatures.

    Hansen is currently calling for a reduction of atmospheric CO2 by 10 percent and a moratorium on coal-fired power plants, while claiming the Bush administration is censoring him. Other so-called scientists are saying the world must bring carbon emissions to near zero to keep temperatures from rising. In today’s politically correct environment, many are reluctant to dispute the popular wisdom; when they do, they are frequently ignored. When NASA administrator Michael Griffin, Hansen’s boss and a distinguished scientist in his own right, attempted to draw a distinction between Hansen’s personal and political views and the science conducted by his agency, he was soon forced to back off.

    It is the true believers who, when they have no facts on their side, try to silence their critics. When former NASA mathematician Ferenc Miskolczi pointed out that “greenhouse warming” may be mathematically impossible, they would not allow him to publish his work. Miskolczi dared to question the simplifying assumption in the warming model that the atmosphere is infinitely thick. He pointed out that when you use the correct thickness— about 65 miles—the greenhouse effect disappears! Ergo: no AGW, Miskolczi resigned in disgust and published his proof in the peer-reviewed Hungarian journal “Weather”.

    For nearly a decade now, there has been no global warming. Even though atmospheric CO2 has continued to accumulate—up about 4 percent in the last 10 years—the global mean temperature has remained flat. That should raise obvious questions about CO2 being the cause of climate change. Instead, AGW enthusiasts are embracing more regulation, greater government spending, and higher taxes in a futile attempt to control what is beyond our control—the Earth’s temperature. One of their political objectives, unstated of course, is the transfer of wealth from rich nations to poor nations or, as the social engineers put it, from the North to the South, which may be their real agenda.

    At the Bali Conference on Climate Change in December 2007, the poor Nations insisted that the costs of technology to limit emissions and other impacts of climate change on their countries be paid by the rich nations. Most anticipated a windfall of money flowing into their countries to develop technology or purchase carbon credits. In this scenario, selling allotments for CO2 emissions would provide a temporary boost to their own cash flow, while severely limiting the economic development of those countries purchasing the carbon credits.

    In the face of overwhelming evidence for natural temperature variation, proponents of AGW are resorting to a precautionary argument:

    “We must do something just in case we are responsible, because the consequences are too terrible if we are to blame and do nothing.”

    They hope to stampede government entities into committing huge amounts of money before their fraud is completely exposed—before science and truth save the day..

    Politicians think they can reverse global warming by stabilizing CO2 emissions with a cocka-mamie scheme of “cap and trade.”A government entity would sell CO2 allocations to those industries producing it. The trillions of dollars in new taxes and devastation to the economy would be justified by claiming it will lower the temperature of the Earth. This rationalization is dependent on two assumptions:

    (1) CO2 is responsible for the cause of changes in the Earth’s temperature
    (2) a warmer Earth would be bad for humanity.

    The reality is that atmospheric CO2 has a minimal impact on greenhouse gases and world temperature. Water vapor is responsible for 95 percent of the greenhouse effect. CO2 contributes just 3.6 percent, with human activity responsible for only 3.2 percent of that. That is why some studies claim CO2 levels are largely irrelevant to global warming.

    Without the greenhouse effect to keep our world warm, the planet would have an average temperature of minus 18 degrees Celsius. Because we do have it, the temperature is a comfortable plus 15 degrees Celsius. Based on the seasonal and geographic distribution of any projected warming, a good case can be made that a warmer average temperature would be even more beneficial for humans. For a tiny fraction of the trillions of dollars a cap-and-trade system would eventually cost the United States, we could pay for development of clean coal and oil-shale recovery systems, nuclear power, and have enough left over to pay for exploration of our solar system.

    By law, NASA cannot involve itself in politics, but it can surely champion the role of science to inform politicians. With so many uninformed and misguided politicians ignoring the available science, NASA should fill the void. NASA is synonymous with science. Allowing our priorities to drift away from hard science is tantamount to embracing decadence and NASA will surely suffer. , and politicizing science is killing it.

    I do see hopeful signs that some true believers are beginning to harbor doubts about AGW. Let’s hope that NASA can focus the global warming discussion back on scientific evidence before we perpetrate an economic disaster on ourselves.

    A former Marine Corps fighter pilot and Apollo 7 astronaut, Walter Cunningham is the author of The All-American Boys. Described by the Chicago Sun-Times as “the most realistic look yet at astronaut life,” the book is available at waltercunningham.com or amazon.com.

  344. Nick Kelsier Says:

    Paul, define statism please.

  345. Nick Kelsier Says:

    Paul Says:

    October 13, 2009 at 11:34 pm
    We live in a Republic made up of States. We should pick a free market state, and a statist state. The other 48 will be the control group and we’ll figure out whose ideas work the best.

    I.E. Free market state: A state in which it lets companies do what they please in all manners of pollution. If a company wants to dump mercury in your back yard it can go right ahead.

    Because somehow 99% of the world’s scientific experts on this subject are all somehow involved in a worldwide conspiracy.

    Oh please.

  346. Nick Kelsier Says:

    And if you’re wrong, Mikael? What then? You don’t think 6 billion people could affect the environment in a major way? Tell me…visited the former Soviet Union lately? Specifically to see how they “treated” the environment.

  347. Chris Says:

    The official inconvenient truth website says “Global sea levels could rise by more than 20 feet with the loss of shelf ice in Greenland and Antarctica, devastating coastal areas worldwide” and that “The Arctic Ocean could be ice free in summer by 2050″

    http://www.climatecrisis.net/thescience/index.html

  348. Ed Darrell Says:

    Why and how science goes over the head of climate change deniers:

    Talk about stifling debate! So, instead of debating the facts or “non-facts” of this film, the author of this article goes into ad-hominums about various “anal” orifices and bovinic references?

    This blog is aimed to assist students and teachers, and so must choose language that is both accurate and suitable for a family audience, in order to avoid most school’s filters. Sometimes we use the scientific name instead of the colloquial. Deniers often mistake scientific accuracy for insult.

  349. Mikael Says:

    Climate change or global warming is now a religion. I builds on the assumption that science can predict the temperature in 50-100 years, while it can’t normally predict it for more than 5 days. Climate is not weather, you say? Well, it is – climate is weather over time. Climate religion also builds on the ancient belief that human beings can change the weather by appeasing gods – only now the god is called Climate, and we don’t dance rain dances any more. Now, the means of appeasing the god is ascetisism – walk, bike, freeze, eat less, don’t buy anything. It is so sad to see a new religion spreading to plague humanity, built on pseudo-science. It is the old human story all over again, the priests, the punishment of the non-believers. Whew!

  350. Fomenting unhappy mischief… — Hot Topic Says:

    [...] Ed Darrell: The film is both evil and wrong. Errors just in the [...]

  351. KA Says:

    Talk about stifling debate! So, instead of debating the facts or “non-facts” of this film, the author of this article goes into ad-hominums about various “anal” orifices and bovinic references? Well, that’s certainly a quest for truth. “They want to raise your taxes?” well, duh, yeah they do. If the “author” didn’t have his head up his ass, it would be clear to see what the “Cap and Trade” tax is all about. Pray that you don’t get your way, because once such a tax is implemented you’ll know what real bondage is and you won’t give a damn about the environment anymore; just scratching out your next green meal.

  352. Paul Says:

    We live in a Republic made up of States. We should pick a free market state, and a statist state. The other 48 will be the control group and we’ll figure out whose ideas work the best.

  353. Nick Kelsier Says:

    So, Brett, since you claim to have science on your side, then what credible peer reviewed scientific journal has your evidence been published in?

    And what happens if your position on climate change is wrong?

  354. Ed Darrell Says:

    You pick statements from the movie clips and give simple, meaningless retorts. It all reads like a 9th grade essay.

    Especially the film screed against Gore and Carson reads like a 9th grade essay.

    I’m a teacher. I’m adding corrections. I can’t improve the product that was handed in. All I can do is show where improvements need to be made.

  355. Brett Says:

    Alright if you APGW believers are so smart, maybe you will be interested in the opinion of one of the most well known physicists and general scientist in current times, Freeman Dyson.

    Here is a quote from a NY Times article,

    IT WAS FOUR YEARS AGO that Dyson began publicly stating his doubts about climate change. Speaking at the Frederick S. Pardee Center for the Study of the Longer-Range Future at Boston University, Dyson announced that “all the fuss about global warming is grossly exaggerated.” Since then he has only heated up his misgivings, declaring in a 2007 interview with Salon.com that “the fact that the climate is getting warmer doesn’t scare me at all” and writing in an essay for The New York Review of Books, the left-leaning publication that is to gravitas what the Beagle was to Darwin, that climate change has become an “obsession” — the primary article of faith for “a worldwide secular religion” known as environmentalism. Among those he considers true believers, Dyson has been particularly dismissive of Al Gore, whom Dyson calls climate change’s “chief propagandist,” and James Hansen, the head of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York and an adviser to Gore’s film, “An Inconvenient Truth.” Dyson accuses them of relying too heavily on computer-generated climate models that foresee a Grand Guignol of imminent world devastation as icecaps melt, oceans rise and storms and plagues sweep the earth, and he blames the pair’s “lousy science” for “distracting public attention” from “more serious and more immediate dangers to the planet.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/29/magazine/29Dyson-t.html

    There are many so called scientists who favor APGW, I am sure non of them hold a candle to this man.

  356. doug Says:

    also, with the whole deal with al gore not saying the water levels would rise, you need to re watch the movie. he did say that. its right there in the movie. he states it vaguely(“in the near future”), but its there. and your just saying the science is right. your just shouting out in the rudest form possible what you think without the argument to go with it.

    as for the ice, i dont think they meant Hell heat. they didnt specify, so i dont think its fair to attack them until weve seen the whole context.

    as for the factories, again you attack rudely with no stated facts. EDUCATE THE OPPOSITION! if they are wrong, change they way they look at it! you wont teach anyone a thing. and i have seen quite a few petitions and protests and reports urging the closing of factories around the world. thats just my experience, but my experience says there is substance to what they are saying.

    the trailer did not say that industry cannot exist without it poisoning the planet. re watch it! research it more! they are saying it ISNT poisoning the planet, not that it IS. you are looking are this close mindedly. you are assuming you are correct before hearing their argument, and applying that logic.

    as for the dark ages, you are using ad hominems again. illogical. you are not fighting the argument, you are fighting the people. fight what they say; they claim environmentalists what chlorine gone. argue against that, or argue against that it would be a bad thing and bacteria and viruses would not be a problem.

    the rest is just opinion. and that voice that said that about al gore was african, probably someone who believes that the banning of DDT caused his people to become stricken with malaria. argue against that, not against the people.

  357. doug Says:

    im sorry, but your points are both rude and non-inclusive. yes, many anti-global warming bills, in fact, most, would raise are taxes. im not saying im for or against this movie, and im not saying i dont believe in global warming, but they make some good points in speeches, and to say that is “evil” is absurd. you cant make a devil out of everyone that disagrees with you. thats not the way you raise awareness.

  358. James Paris Says:

    This is a great movie. Open your eyes to the truth.
    http://www.justwrongnotevil.org

  359. James Paris Says:

    This is an excellent movie. Open your eyes to the truth! http://www.noteviljustwrong.org

  360. Paul Says:

    So far on the fella

    http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/9tlyr/hannity_the_debate_is_over_there_is_no_global/c0edmoj

    Will research the other.

  361. Ed Darrell Says:

    Brett complained:

    I myself proved your point on China incorrect.

    No, you made some rumblings about China, and you said you’d been there. Then you said you’d rather I not respond to you. Your having been to China proves nothing. Especially photos of plants built a decade ago don’t disprove China’s efforts to clean their emissions.

    I’m sure you thought you could just spout that out without anyone calling you on it.

    No, I was taking you at your word that you wouldn’t listen and didn’t care for the other story. You should know that I’ve worked in air pollution research and environmental policy for many years. You appear quite new to the topic yourself. If you’re genuinely interested in the issue, there are a lot of sources.

    No, China is no paragon of air cleanliness. China is moving, however, and we should not let them get ahead of us in the technological wars.

    Well, you are wrong. The Chinese do not have scrubbers on their coal plants and they are dumping huge amounts of pollution into the air.

    You pretend as if the last decade didn’t happen, as if the Chinese Olympics and the embarrassment of the dirty air didn’t occur, and as if China has stood still. Come into the 21st century, will you?

    In fact they had to shut down the coal plants months before the Olympics to try and let the air clear. Normal conditions there are visibility of less than 3 miles due to pollution.

    Weeks before, not months. And it didn’t work. So they’ve come back with rules on scrubbers on the new plants. Retrofitting may be a different story. China can’t afford air pollution, just as no one else can, either. And they now know it.

    If you really want to cite true science you should read about Milankovitch cycles, then read about Solar variations. Lord Monckton also has a lot of good information on Solar variations. There are also very good studies on the Earth’s precipitation systems and how they moderate atmospheric temperature.

    If you want to spout off about air pollution, start with London in the 19th century, study London in 1948 and Donora in 1952, take a look at the history of the Clean Air Act, and come on up to the present.

    You’re only about 100 years behind, and once you see what’s really going on, you’ll understand why Monckton is considered a crackpot.

  362. Jim Says:

    Go —- al’s —- you moron!

  363. David Harrington Says:

    Boy you certainly convinced me.

  364. Junk Science, Coming To A Theater Near You! | Politics @ Perkisets Says:

    [...] The best amateur rebuttal to the film I’ve seen is here: http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2009/08/16/new-junk-science-movie-not-evil-just-wrong/ [...]

  365. Brett Says:

    Ed your myopic viewpoint is really very sad. Several people have stated valid scientific fact yet you just blow by without addressing those points. Anthropogenic Global Warming will be proven wrong, as well it should be since it is based on junk science.

    I myself proved your point on China incorrect. I’m sure you thought you could just spout that out without anyone calling you on it. Well, you are wrong. The Chinese do not have scrubbers on their coal plants and they are dumping huge amounts of pollution into the air. In fact they had to shut down the coal plants months before the Olympics to try and let the air clear. Normal conditions there are visibility of less than 3 miles due to pollution.

    If you really want to cite true science you should read about Milankovitch cycles, then read about Solar variations. Lord Monckton also has a lot of good information on Solar variations. There are also very good studies on the Earth’s precipitation systems and how they moderate atmospheric temperature.

    Only then can you argue from a more informed point of view.

  366. Stew Says:

    I’m with Aldo. This website is trash. You claim to report accuracy, avoid any actual science, avoid citing real references, then refer people back to the Internet for real information. Why? You pick statements from the movie clips and give simple, meaningless retorts. It all reads like a 9th grade essay.

    I’ve not seen the movie yet, of course, but look forward to hearing another side of a very one-sided story.

    Finally, call Cap’n Trade a tax, a fee, a cost to pass along to end consumers, or anything else you wish, but in the end we will all pay more for American made goods. There is simply no way around it. Industry already has many cost drivers to leave the US, this will very simply be one more. Will China, India, Mexico, etc pollute less per unit product? Not an icecube’s chance in Al Gore’s oh-so-comfortable mansion.

  367. Nick Kelsier Says:

    Ben writes:
    If you are going to issue a rebuttle I suggest when posing counterpoints you actually cite facts and references instead of condescending remarks and badgering… People may actually take you seriously.

    And yet you dont’ cite facts, references, truth or even valid science. You always such a rank hypocrite?

  368. Ed Darrell Says:

    If I were as bad at law and ignorant of science as John Coleman, I’d probably be angry, too.

    Ben, you got a lot of gall to ask me to cite facts when these yahoos spout off fictional accounts at every turn.

    But you may be as new to these issues as you appear. It’s possible you’re genuinely searching for information, and just missing the manners gene.

    See that “search” function up in the upper right hand corner? Go there, type in “DDT” and you’ll find a load of citations demonstrating the film-makers don’t know beans about the issues there. You might find some stuff on global warming, or Al Gore, too.

    Somehow I suspect your rant is because you like what the filmmakers say, and you hope they are right. You will have to learn to face disappointment, and you can’t start any younger.

  369. Ben Says:

    If you are going to issue a rebuttle I suggest when posing counterpoints you actually cite facts and references instead of condescending remarks and badgering… People may actually take you seriously.

    If the skepticism towards global warming/man-made climate change is such “pseudoscience”, how come the founder of the Weather Channel, John Coleman (a meteorologist (btw, a position of which Al Gore is NOT), is attempting (along with 30,000 scientists, a position of which Al Gore is NOT), to sue Al Gore for FRAUD?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfoNct-kfqw

    CITE YOUR FACTS YOU WINDBAG

  370. Nick Kelsier Says:

    The asinine response, Brett, was yours.

    For your position to be valid..there would have to be a worldwide conspiracy on epic scale involing hundreds of thousands of scientists.

    Since that’s not likely you’re just an idiot.

  371. Ed Darrell Says:

    Brett said:

    Don’t bother with some sort of asinine response . . .

    You’ll be pleased to know, perhaps, that my mother agrees with you, partly. She always warned me not to stir a big pot of crazy. I’ll take her advice on this one.

  372. Brett Says:

    Ed Darrell:

    You are an idiot. Have you been to China? I have, twice. I’ve seen the coal fired plants pouring thick grey smoke into the air and over the fields of crops. They do not have stack scrubbing technology and I have photos to prove it!

    As far as Al Gore, he is all about making money on the junk science idea that there is global warming. The Earth is an open system. No one can prove warming or cooling, “period”.

    If I were to put my cards in any single place, it would by the scientifically verifiable equations of Milankovitch. By his measure we are heading into an ice age. Doesn’t matter what you feel, the northern and middle latitudes of the US will be under a mile of ice in about 3000 years.

    By then we will be a space fairing race, we can live on the Moon or Mars to wait it out.

    Don’t bother with some sort of asinine response, it won’t prove anything other then you are still an idiot.

  373. As the planet hits record high temperatures, a falsehood-pushing film-maker tries to shout down real journalists from asking Al Gore questions | Going Green Says:

    [...] — perhaps the most unintentionally ironic film title in history — which, as blogger Ed Darrell notes, has 9 errors just in the [...]

  374. Ed Darrell Says:

    Al Gore is an idiot.

    A very smart, caring, talented, hard-working idiot.

    leave america alone,go to china and stop thier polution problem first. see how that one works out for you… idiot

    China is about even with us in coal-stack-cleaning technology now. If they surpass us, they will be able to corner the market and take more jobs from Americans.

    I’d prefer that the U.S. take the lead in technolgoy there. Whose side are you on, anyway?

    Well, Al Gore isn’t saying that sea levels will rise in the very near future, but he sure is implying they might.

    Gore made a simple statement of fact. The “implication” that it might happen soon is your reading into his statement something he did not say.

    What makes people do that; guilt, perhaps?

    Those who make the distortions are the film-makers in this case, who claim Gore made a gross error — when he told the truth. The film is quite explicit in saying we don’t need to worry about global warming. That’s exactly the opposite of what the judge said in the odd case in England — and it’s untrue.

  375. rod Says:

    leave america alone,go to china and stop thier polution problem first. see how that one works out for you… idiot

  376. Zencat Says:

    Al Gore is an idiot.

  377. Hagbard Celine Says:

    Errors just in the trailer:

    1. Claims that Al Gore said sea levels will rise catastrophically, “in the very near future.” Not in his movie, not in his writings or speeches. Not true. That’s a simple misstatement of what Gore said, and Gore had the science right.

    Heres an excerpt from the transcript of Al Gores Inconvenient Truth:

    West Antarctica Land Based Ice

    I want to focus on West Antarctica, because it illustrates two factors about land-based ice and sea-based ice. It’s a little of both. It’s propped on tops of islands, but the ocean comes up underneath it. So if the ocean gets warmer, it has an impact on it. If this were to go, sea levels worldwide would go up 20 feet. They’ve measured disturbing changes on the underside of this ice sheet. It’s considered relatively more stable, however, than another big body of ice that is roughly the same size. Greenland

    Well, Al Gore isn’t saying that sea levels will rise in the very near future, but he sure is implying they might.

    Anyway, I don’t think all of the name calling – anus of male bovines and the sort – will do anything as to supporting an argument. What we need in this discussion is facts and science. Global warming is not a religion!

  378. Ed Darrell Says:

    I personally think we are watching history in the making.

    When is that ever not true?

    Have you seen the movie you speak so glowingly about?

  379. David Alan Says:

    The viewing for Not Evil Just Wrong is slated for Oct 18. World wide distribution to be seen in the privacy of your own home, with friends. I think its a cool idea. Skipping critics and reviewers. Its a documentary and not a hollywood movie. The makers of NEJW are concerned about profit or glory, just the message. Its not propaganda, just questioning the validity of Al Gore and the Alarmistas. The success of the film won’t be measured in dollars or public policy, but in allowing the public to become aware of a growing number concerns regarding the possible falsehood of the AGW agenda. Silence by force, forces the average man to fight back at any cost. I think the debate is over, its just a matter of time for the truth to come out and I personally think we are watching history in the making.

  380. Aldo Says:

    Your web site is moronic.
    That leads me to suspect that you are a moron.
    Affectionately,
    Aldo

  381. Ed Darrell Says:

    Jaime, here’s a quick and dirty glossary of relevant terms, from the National Academy of Sciences:
    http://www.nationalacademies.org/evolution/Definitions.html

    Here’s a longer, more detailed set of definitions, from the NAS’s book on education and evolution; notice how important it is not to confuse “theory” with “hypothesis”:

    Terms Used in Describing the Nature of Science*

    Fact: In science, an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as “true.” Truth in science, however, is never final, and what is accepted as a fact today may be modified or even discarded tomorrow.

    Hypothesis: A tentative statement about the natural world leading to deductions that can be tested. If the deductions are verified, it becomes more probable that the hypothesis is correct. If the deductions are incorrect, the original hypothesis can be abandoned or modified. Hypotheses can be used to build more complex inferences and explanations.

    Law: A descriptive generalization about how some aspect of the natural world behaves under stated circumstances.

    Theory: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.

    The contention that evolution should be taught as a “theory, not as a fact” confuses the common use of these words with the scientific use. In science, theories do not turn into facts through the accumulation of evidence. Rather, theories are the end points of science. They are understandings that develop from extensive observation, experimentation, and creative reflection. They incorporate a large body of scientific facts, laws, tested hypotheses, and logical inferences. In this sense, evolution is one of the strongest and most useful scientific theories we have.

    * Adapted from Teaching About Evolution and the Nature of Science by the National Academy of Sciences (Washington, D.C.: National Academy Press, 1998)

  382. Ed Darrell Says:

    CJ, if you read the judge’s decision in Britain, you’ll see that he agrees with Gore that sea level could rise by 20 feet or so, especially if the Greenland ice sheets melt and flow into the ocean. Gore was not in error on that.

    The complaint is that Gore suggests that this is imminent, when it’s probably a century away (if we’re lucky). I watched the film and it was quite clear to me that it was going to be my grandchildren’s problem and not mine.

    No one is disputing the amount of water in the ice sheets, nor the destruction were they to melt. We’re only quibbling about how soon it will happen.

  383. Ed Darrell Says:

    If you don’t want to have your motives questioned, make sure don’t question those of others.

    I’m not questioning your motives. I merely note that you’ve got the facts wrong. Wrong facts skew analysis of a problem, and in this case, produce a wrong answer.

    You can’t claim that Rachel Carson was wrong when we now know that her methods work stupendously to reduce malaria, though it took “us” collectively 40 years to get around to applying those lessons. That is all.

    I’ll get a reference for you on theory and law. In science, theory means a structure that explains how and why laws work. Laws are subsidiary.

    BTW, NPR doesn’t aim to be a bastion of conservative thought — they aim to be fair, instead. If you tallied talking heads, right and left, you’d find they carry slightly more right-wing types than left wing. But they aim to be straight in their reporting, and they most often succeed. A person can be well-informed simply listening to only one of NPR’s stellar news programs — except about local sports and local weather. You can’t say the same about any other national news outlet, except perhaps the NY Times and Washington Post.

    It’s no mystery why straight-up news outlets don’t have a conservative bias, you know: Reality is skewed to the liberal side.

  384. cj Says:

    Hmm, NPR — not a bastion of conservative thought — reports Gore’s documentary claims “sea level rises by 20 feet.” A simple google search will find loads of news accounts, some quoting Gore exactly, regarding his claim of a 20 foot sea leave rise.
    Link: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9025302

    It seems you are wrong.

  385. Nick Kelsier Says:

    Jaime writes:
    And I, on a personal level, place a great deal more weight on the life of a small child in Africa who might die from malaria than that of any species of bird. Anyone who wants to ’save Africa’ should also want DDT brought back.

    And yet, Jaime, you’re willing to let African’s die due to DDT being used. Or did you somehow miss the fact that DDT is dangerous to humans as well?

    And as for your statement about climate change I have a question for you. What if you’re wrong? What if the climate change deniers are wrong?

    Or to put this another way. Do you build a fireescape on a building before a fire or after a fire?

  386. Climate Update » Blog Archive » As the planet hits record high temperatures, a falsehood-pushing film-maker tries to shout down real journalists from asking Al Gore questions Says:

    [...] — perhaps the most unintentionally ironic film title in history — which, as blogger Ed Darrell notes, has 9 errors just in the [...]

  387. Jaime Says:

    Let’s quickly review the steps of the scientific method (simplified):

    Formulate a question
    Conduct background research
    Construct a hypothesis
    Test the hypothesis through experimentation
    Analyze data generated and draw conclusions based on data
    Communicate methods and results for replication

    Independent verification of results using identical methods allows the Hypothesis to be advanced further. A law is an observation and a theory is an attempt to explain an observation. Technically, by definition, neither can really be superior to the other. In what way is Einstein’s Theory of Relativity superior to Newton’s Laws of Physics? How about the Laws of Thermodynamics? Ohm’s Law? The true test of a theory or a law is, “Does it work?” Using the scientific method, it is extremely debatable as to whether sufficient testing of the hypothesis of man-made global warming has been done to call it a theory or pass it into ’settled science’. Using invective to silence dissent on an unsettled matter is a poor method of proving an argument. I have enough experience with statistics that I never try to use them in an argument, they are far too easy to manipulate in order prove a false premise or advance an agenda. Likewise with computer models. As soon as the weatherman on channel 7 is right 100% of the time about the weather this weekend, I’ll stop questioning the ability to model climate and weather patterns decades in the future. I think that the global climate is too complex with far too many variables to be accurately modeled with any degree of certainty. If it is not then it should be possible to look back in time and predict the patterns that have been observed. The models that have been in use have not been able to accurately replicate observed climate patterns so why would anyone have faith in their predictions of future patterns? Junk science is as junk science does.

    If you don’t want to have your motives questioned, make sure don’t question those of others. I have my reasons for believing what I believe whether you agree with me or not. As well intentioned as the green movement may be, the people that always suffer the most for the hasty implementation of poorly developed policies are always the people that can afford it the least. I wish you the best of luck and I hope we can all find our way to the truth that benefits all, whatever it may be.

  388. As the planet hits record high temperatures, a falsehood-pushing film-maker tries to shout down real journalists from asking Al Gore questions | Climate Vine Says:

    [...] — perhaps the most unintentionally ironic film title in history — which, as blogger Ed Darrell notes, has 9 errors just in the [...]

  389. Ed Darrell Says:

    Just follow the scientific method. It’s worked for a very long time and the items that have passed from theory to natural law have remained such.

    Actually, it works the other way. Theory is superior to law. No big deal, but I think maybe you’re garbling some of the other science, too.

    My understanding is that the models being used have produced wildly differing results even when the same inputs are used.

    Where could you get that understanding, when it’s not so? Differing results come from differing inputs. And, out of 10,000 or 20,000 simulations run, they all tend to agreement on disaster. We’re talking degrees of disaster, and the degree differs chiefly on the inputs.

    All models have a range of potential error, but all that means is that other things can interfere. For the past five decades, the trend has been one way. Overall, the trend has been pretty constant for the past 180 years at least.

    And I, on a personal level, place a great deal more weight on the life of a small child in Africa who might die from malaria than that of any species of bird. Anyone who wants to ’save Africa’ should also want DDT brought back. If you’re not willing to do that, then please tell your story about compassion for the suffering in Africa to the wind, I have no further use for you. I’ve seen the suffering in many parts of the world brought on by mosquitos and I have no more patience for those of you who ‘care’ about the third world. I would give my own eyes for the DDT to effectively kill the mosquitos that are killing by the hundreds-of-thousands in under-developed, tropical parts of the world. Malaria is an awful way to die and through the banning of DDT millions of African and Asian children have been sentenced to death by that terrible disease. You and Rachel Carson should have to be there to comfort every dying child and their parents, that should be your punishment for true junk science. I question your motives and have begun to believe that these environmental measures are simply racists methods to eliminate portions of the world population you do not value.

    If you really cared about those children in Africa, you’d do the study required to see what could effectively help them out. And if you did that study, you’d discover that the programs of integrated pest management that have been adopted over the past decade produce the best results in preventing and curing malaria. Also, you’d know that’s what Rachel Carson suggested in 1962.

    So we lost a lot of time between 1962 and 2002 when we could have been beating malaria and, perhaps, saving a few thousands of lives.

    But we didn’t do that because people opposed Rachel Carson’s ideas, often without having bothered to study to find out what Carson had said.

    And now you urge inaction based on your own misunderstanding of Carson’s position.

    And then you have the gall to question my motives, and to condemn Carson, whose methods are saving children now?

    We can’t poison Africa to health. Never could have. Do us all a favor and stay out of African health policy until you read Ms. Carson’s books, and perhaps those of Socrates Litsios, too.

  390. Jaime Says:

    I would really like to see people put a little less emphasis on how many degrees people have and the institutions that grant them. Try to keep in mind that it was Harvard educated MBAs that brought us the wonderful “credit default swaps” that have led us into this recession/depression. Where you get a piece of paper doesn’t mean your going to go out and do things that help.

    Just follow the scientific method. It’s worked for a very long time and the items that have passed from theory to natural law have remained such. Present the theory and evidence and have it independently verified. If the results are proven to be repeatable then no one can argue against them. I don’t think that’s been the case so far with ‘man-made’ global warming. My understanding is that the models being used have produced wildly differing results even when the same inputs are used.

    A complete alteration of society and civilization should be based on something a little more proven, and provable, than what’s been presented. So far, I’m not convinced.

    And I, on a personal level, place a great deal more weight on the life of a small child in Africa who might die from malaria than that of any species of bird. Anyone who wants to ’save Africa’ should also want DDT brought back. If you’re not willing to do that, then please tell your story about compassion for the suffering in Africa to the wind, I have no further use for you. I’ve seen the suffering in many parts of the world brought on by mosquitos and I have no more patience for those of you who ‘care’ about the third world. I would give my own eyes for the DDT to effectively kill the mosquitos that are killing by the hundreds-of-thousands in under-developed, tropical parts of the world. Malaria is an awful way to die and through the banning of DDT millions of African and Asian children have been sentenced to death by that terrible disease. You and Rachel Carson should have to be there to comfort every dying child and their parents, that should be your punishment for true junk science. I question your motives and have begun to believe that these environmental measures are simply racists methods to eliminate portions of the world population you do not value.

  391. Dawn Says:

    Remember, too, that this film is already known to have gross inaccuracies about Rachel Carson and DDT, stuff that high school kids could get right easily

    Most high school kids could’nt even pass the citizenship test. Guess we know what they ARE learning.

  392. Nick Kelsier Says:

    Kelly writes:

    Kelly Simmons Says:

    October 10, 2009 at 9:22 am
    I get it that chemicals can impact micro places on the planet. If you siht in a room is smells, but the planet dosen’t. It’s amazing that no one can disprove the fact the Sun’s cycle impacts the cycle of earth. 4 billion + years and I’ll bet the earth has gone from cold to hot, wet to dry many times. The fact that some people think that 6 billion people can do more than the sun is crazy.

    And if you’re wrong, Kelly? And what education/degrees do you hold that you’re an expert on questioning actual scientists?

    Or do you really want to pretend that 6 billion people can’t affect the earth? What happens when all those micro-affects you say we can do adds up?

  393. Ed Darrell Says:

    Kelly, sometime you should look up Donora, Pennsylvania, and the killer fog of London.

    Then you might want to study the decision in the U.S. to ban tetraethyl lead from gasoline. That action raised the collective I.Q. of the nation by several points.

    Then take a look at the time-lapse photos of the destruction of Lake Chad and the Aral Sea.

    Human actions have been changing our climate for hundreds of years. Now we do it on such a scale that we do indeed need to worry about. The sun in 93 million miles away, and our chief energy source — but it’s not our chief pollution source. While you’re studying our solar system, however, take a look at Venus and what a runaway greenhouse gas system looks like.

    Scientists are not making up the changes.

    And now that I’ve got your skepticism of what I say running at fever pitch, look at the PBS report on global dimming. It turns out that contrails and other vapor releases have been cooling our planet for a couple of decades. Do you see the issue? But for our pollution that cools the planet, our pollution that warms the planet would be much more destructive.

    Yes, they are only molecules, gases invisible to the naked eye. Yes, they can do those destructive things.

  394. Kelly Simmons Says:

    I get it that chemicals can impact micro places on the planet. If you siht in a room is smells, but the planet dosen’t. It’s amazing that no one can disprove the fact the Sun’s cycle impacts the cycle of earth. 4 billion + years and I’ll bet the earth has gone from cold to hot, wet to dry many times. The fact that some people think that 6 billion people can do more than the sun is crazy.

  395. Ed Darrell Says:

    Thomas said:

    A noble dead woman? Nice appeal special pleading Darrell but I’ve read “Silent Spring” and it’s a hoax.

    I’ll wager you didn’t read it well. Name one claim Carson makes that is not true. Can you? Give us page numbers — I’ll bet you can’t name them, or if you name one, there is no science to support your claim.

    Your beloved WHO lifted the ban on DDT because it saves lives.

    First, WHO never banned DDT. They stopped using it in broadcast spraying when it became untenable. In 2005 they put out a press release saying they’d use more, but it has proven no panacea, and they have alternatives that are less destructive and more effective.

    Ed you say that there was NO rebuttal of her book? That sends a CLEAR message of anti-scientific, faith-based literature. In science the debate is never closed.

    I didn’t say the debate is closed. I said there has been no rebuttal of her claims. In science, the debate is always open to anyone with data. Alas for those who wish to poison Africa, there are no data to support their claims that DDT is a miracle substance akin to pixie dust.

    Did you say you had read her book? You skipped all the footnotes? Carson knew the scientists doing the work, and she knew their work. She was a scientist, too, remember. They gave her their best stuff, sometimes before publishing (but it’s all published so far as I’ve found).

    She’s got the goods, and their in the book. No one has been able to contradict her claims, because chemistry and biology have not undergone radical changes in the way the work. The laws of the universe still hold. Poison is still poison.

    The debate is based solely on empirical evidence, not noble dead women.

    Odd. You come in blazing with snark against a noble dead woman who has all empirical evidence, then claim that you’ve got evidence instead. Why then the snark? Where’s the evidence?

  396. Ed Darrell Says:

    T. J. Lovell said:

    The death toll in Africa from the DDT ban is between 30 and 50 million people[see Paul Driessen's book: ECO-IMPERIALISM: Green Policy Black Death].

    Or would be, if the absence of DDT were the cause of all the deaths in Africa for the past 50 years.

    But that’s not the case. DDT use was stopped chiefly because WHO learned that abuse of DDT by agricultural interests made mosquitoes in Africa resistant to DDT. In short, the stuff stopped working.

    So, Driessen would be right, had he picked a pesticide that worked well against African mosquitoes. But that’s not the case.

    Plus, how do you explain the drop in malaria deaths after broadcast use of DDT was stopped?

    Malaria is more complex than that. Malaria deaths rose, when the deaths rose in the last 40 years, when the pharmaceuticals used to treat the disease in humans ceased to work. Dramatic reductions in deaths have been achieved in the past five years with integrated pest management and campaigns based on expanding the use of bednets.

    DDT was never, and is not now, a panacea treatment for malaria. Dreissen’s conclusions are not shared by any professional malaria fighting organization, nor by WHO, nor by any nation in Africa. I think it’s quite uppity of Driessen to suggest the logical conclusion of his claim, that Africans are too stupid to want to fight malaria.

    Yes, about a million people a year die from malaria. No, there’s not much evidence that DDT would have saved even one of them.

    If you think that 30-50 million deaths are OK, then Rachel Carson’s is a saint.

    Successes in reducing malaria death rates in the past decade have been achieved with integrated pest management — exactly what Rachel Carson urged in 1962. Had we listened to Carson then, how many million could we have saved? And how cheesy of Driessen to pretend Carson was opposed to it, while Driessen steals her ideas and takes credit for them.

    If on the other hand you think 30-50 million avoidable deaths is not a good outcome then Carson is not a saint.

    Au contraire. Carson’s methods reduce deaths now — the 30 to 50 million deaths could have been prevented, had we listened to Carson. Perhaps your guilt drives you to try to misplace blame on her — but how crass, how craven, how evil and creepy! Here’s a woman who spelled out how to save 50 million Africans, and you didn’t bother to read her book!

    My favorite Harvard public health official calls what Carson did “engaging in statistical murder” that is following a policy path that leaves more people dead than other choices would.

    Name the bastard. He deserves a stiff letter.

    I grew up on a farm in Montana and we sprayed DDT, 2-4-D Amine and a host of other great chemicals and they helped improve every part of our lives. I would love to see the Carson supporters on this blog go work on a farm or ranch MINUS DDT and the other miracle chemicals of the 20th century-good luck.

    You played with poison and lived. That’s not exactly a great recommendation for the future. In Montana? You approve of poisoning Montana with DDT? Oh, those who don’t know history . . .

    Wherever there are great forests, modern methods of insect control threaten the fishes inhabiting the streams in the shelter of the trees. One of the best-known examples of fish destruction in the United States took place in 1955, as a result of spraying in and near Yellowstone National Park. By the fall of that year, so many dead fish had been found in the Yellowstone River that sportsmen and Montana and fish-and-game administrators became alarmed. About 90 miles of the river were affected. In one 300-yard length of shoreline, 600 dead fish were counted, including brown trout, whitefish and suckers. Stream insects, the natural food of trout, had disappeared.

    Forest Service officials declared they had acted on advice that 1 pound of DDT to the acre was “safe.” But the results of the spraying should have been enough to convince anyone that the advice had been far from sound. A cooperative study was begun in 1956 by the Montana Fish and Game Department and two federal agencies, the Fish and Wildlife Service and the Forest Service. Spraying in Montana that year covered 900,000 acres; 800,000 acres were also treated in 1957. The biologists therefore had no trouble finding areas for their study.

    Always, the pattern of death assumed a haracteristic shape: the smell of DDT over the forests, an oil film on the water surface, dead trout along the shoreline. All fish analyzed, whether taken alive or dead, had stored DDT in their tissues. As in eastern Canada, one of the most serious effects of spraying was the severe reduction of food organisms. On many study areas aquatic insects and other stream-bottom fauna were reduced to a tenth of their normal populations. Once destroyed, populations of these insects, so essential to the survival of trout, take a long time to rebuild. Even by the end of the second summer after spraying, only meager quantities of aquatic insects had re-established themselves, and on one stream — formerly rich in bottom fauna — scarcely any could be found. In this particular stream, game fish had been reduced by 80 per cent.

    Silent Spring, 40th Anniversary Edition, pages 136-137

    Santayana’s Ghost weeps.

  397. Thomas Says:

    A noble dead woman? Nice appeal special pleading Darrell but I’ve read “Silent Spring” and it’s a hoax. Your beloved WHO lifted the ban on DDT because it saves lives. Ed you say that there was NO rebuttal of her book? That sends a CLEAR message of anti-scientific, faith-based literature. In science the debate is never closed. The debate is based solely on empirical evidence, not noble dead women.

  398. TJ LOVELL Says:

    The death toll in Africa from the DDT ban is between 30 and 50 million people[see Paul Driessen's book: ECO-IMPERIALISM: Green Policy Black Death]. If you think that 30-50 million deaths are OK, then Rachel Carson’s is a saint. If on the other hand you think 30-50 million avoidable deaths is not a good outcome then Carson is not a saint. My favorite Harvard public health official calls what Carson did “engaging in statistical murder” that is following a policy path that leaves more people dead than other choices would. I grew up on a farm in Montana and we sprayed DDT, 2-4-D Amine and a host of other great chemicals and they helped improve every part of our lives. I would love to see the Carson supporters on this blog go work on a farm or ranch MINUS DDT and the other miracle chemicals of the 20th century-good luck.

  399. Ed Darrell Says:

    Then, Kenny, follow the links. Check out the footnotes.

    Carson’s book is astoundingly accurate. Of the studies she cited — and there are 53 pages of citations to peer-reviewed science and other studies — not a single one has been rebutted in science. Not one.

    Discover magazine did a count two years ago and found about 1,200 studies on DDT in birds since Carson published. Each one of those studies supported Carson’s conclusions.

    It’s not that it’s published at Millard Fillmore’s Bathtub that makes it accurate. It’s that it is hard science, backed by hard research. Real data always trumps an argument from authority.

  400. Kenny Says:

    Information approved by MTV, Greenpeace, Hollywood, the DNC, or espcially “Millard Filmore’s Bathtub” doesn’t strike me as meeting the the test of truth, having the ring of truth, or even remotely resembling the truth.

  401. Ed Darrell Says:

    Anybody who thinks the accurate labeling of “deniers” closes down debate is denying reality.

    These people are inventing whole cloth lies about noble dead women. “Denier” is the most polite, non-obscene thing we can call them and still be accurate.

    Read Carson’s book, will you?

  402. A. Wildberry Says:

    ” that’s pure, uncomposted bovine excrement . . . more effluent from the anus of male bovines”

    It is depressing to read the abuse that this ‘debate’ appears to generate. Does anyone really expect to be taken seriously if he or she simply hurls insults and declines to offer argument or evidence? To most impartial readers, the use of words like denier (holocaust denier?) and worse, looks simply like an attempt to close down debate. It certainly has the advantage of saving time, and of course it dispenses with the need actually to provide answers to awkward albeit legitimate questions. But it suggests that the doom-sayers (another emotive attack-word) regard their sincerely held opinions more as some kind of divinely revealed truth, not be challenged except by heretics.

  403. Eli Rabett Says:

    Perhaps Not could make some comments on how her friends at the AEI and Tobacco Institute have been maligning Rachel Carson for forty years in an effort to maintain profits.

  404. Nick Kelsier Says:

    So the producers of the movie never fly on jets?

    And gee…wonder what kind of jets the people at the American Enterprise Institute fly on.

    Sorry, to the producers of the movie I say this..only idiots think that all the pollution we generate does nothing bad to the environment or to the health of the people. You’re frauds, liars and crackheads.

  405. Marion Delgado Says:

    Bless you, Ed.

  406. Bruce Sharp Says:

    You would sorta think that if somebody actually WANTED to “go back to the Dark Ages and the Black Plague,” then that would make them “Evil” in addition to “Wrong.”

    Oh, well. I guess the producers realized that this is one of the great things about denial: You don’t need to trouble yourself with that pesky consistency.

  407. bi -- IJI Says:

    Not Evil Just Wrong, we’d be happy to accept your offer to debate, on the condition that the debate happen on board Al Gore’s private jet.

    bi

  408. JimV Says:

    It is depressing how much disinformation is being spread for cynical purposes these days. Of course, rebuttals can also be made (as this post illustrates, thank you), but it takes more effort to dig up the actual facts and make logical arguments, and the results aren’t as catchy.

    My technical solution (I’m a technologist): perfect the lie-detector via neurological studies, MRI’s, or whatever it takes. Not for everyday use, but so that the people on both sides of important, controversial issues can be put on the record as to what they know.

  409. Ed Darrell Says:

    The thread is open here, and at my previous post on your errors about Rachel Carson — feel free to come back any time.

  410. Not Evil Just Wrong Says:

    You’ll be glad to know that we’d be happy to debate you after the movie premiere on Oct 18, 2009. Hope to see you there.

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